Production Dating Question (2010)

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maximini

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I just received a dating certificate on my '68 commando. It was around the 175th bike produced. It says that it was dispatched May 1968. I was trying to find out if that is the same as the date it was built or just the date it left the factory. If it was the date that it left the factory does anyone know when it was built?
 
Maybe someone who worked there at the factory could say for sure. I would guess that it is very near the build and shipped date with a little fudging for the factories convenience. It seems that one would build and test the motor and then at some point join it to a frame for the assembly process the numbers were all stamped right into the frame at that date. So was the number punched into the motor first? I would think so than the frame as they came up but before stove enameling. Maybe Frank can fill us in he was there.
 
maximini said:
I just received a dating certificate on my '68 commando. It was around the 175th bike produced. It says that it was dispatched May 1968. I was trying to find out if that is the same as the date it was built or just the date it left the factory.
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Commando production commenced around April-May 1968. "Dispatched" means "dispatched" as far as I'm aware, and the fact that you now know it, is something of a result, if the dating officer had more information then I'm sure he would have passed it on to you?



norbsa48503 said:
It seems that one would build and test the motor and then at some point join it to a frame for the assembly process the numbers were all stamped right into the frame at that date. So was the number punched into the motor first? I would think so than the frame as they came up but before stove enameling. Maybe Frank can fill us in he was there.
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Maybe they tested one engine in every 100? I'm not sure Frank could tell us much, as he would have been working Marston Road, Wolverhampton, 150 miles away from the AMC factory in Plumstead where Commandos were built until mid-1969.
 
L.A.B, you're quite right about the distance involved. I only made one visit to Plumstead the whole time I was with N-V. Also, we were up to our arm-pits in alligators on the AJS Stormer development once the Commando was into production. The Plumstead guys did all the production-related stuff.

Beachbum's dad was involved in testing at Plumstead, as I understand. He might know how it all worked. Based on general industry practice at the time, I would guess that every engine at least got started and run though a basic check on a dyno bench before being released for installation and probably each bike got a quick blast round East London before it was released for delivery. Given the state of the company, though, I wouldn't bet a case of beer on it!
 
What I was confused about was whether the date od dispatch represented the date the bike was completed on the line, the date the ID plate was riveted on or the date that it was released to the shipper. It does not matter that much, I was just curious. The bikes are all away for the winter and an idle mind is a dangerous thing.
 
I have a 1972 Commando, which is why I am on this forum. However I also happen to be the machine dating officer for the AJS and Matchless owners club and we have the factory records for the Nortons built at Plumstead. I have researched bikes from the G15/P11 etc series, but haven't looked at the early Commando records till now.
Certainly all the AJS and Matchless bikes were tested on the road and the records give a test date, name of tester and a separate dispatch date. The Norton records only give a dispatch date (but not a test date) and a dispatch docket number so I don't know if they were tested on the road, however the Navigators were as I have seen a picture of one being tested. I will contact a former Plumstead employee and see what he remembers.
I have had a quick look at the records and the first Commando I can find is one in February 1968 for Berliners, presumably for display/demonstration purposes, another one in March 1968, then production proper starts on 18 April 1968. The last Commando in the Plumstead records is on 2 October 1969 to a member of staff.
As an aside in the middle of one of the Commando production runs there are two P11s with the destination given as "Film Star" rather than a dealer. As I have seen photos of Clint Eastwood on a N15/P11 in London I wonder if these were for him.
Hope this helps,
Les
 
Have got in contact with an ex Plumstead employee and he was on the assembly line rather than testing. However he knew they were started in the test shop on the ground floor, probably using a slave fuel tank and pipes, but cant remember any great road test activity, or lines of Commandos outside in the road like they used to have with the Matchless/AJS etc
 
Les, thanks for posting that information. It really gives a feel for what was going on at the time. VMCC gave me the dating information on my bike, but it was pretty sparse. Just a model, a destination and dispatch date. They said the records from Norton were often not any more specific. When I got the certificate on my BSA, it had much more information. I guess Matchless and AJS were better at keeping their records too.
 
Les, does that mean that all Commandos from April 68 to October 69 were made in Plumstead? I think that would mean all the original early Fastbacks, R, and S models were probably made there? The list of S model ID numbers I have goes to Dec of 69. It seems that it took maybe 6-9 months or more to get a bike built and to the US for sale, because all the manufactured 69 S models, even the March and April, seem to be registered in 70 in the US, and called 70 models.

I imagine all these bikes were shipped via containers in boats to Brooklyn, but that only takes a week from Bremerhaven, (I came back from there in the Army in 65), and from UK would be a day shorter, maybe.

Maximini, why don't you start a list of the early Fastback ID numbers, before the R and S models to see what you get. There seem to be quite a few out there like the S models. Too bad we don't have any R model members that I know of, I'd like to see some. They seem to be a variation on the S and original Commando models.

Les, I have a link to a picture of Clint on a 69S in Yugoslavia making a film there, let me find it, yes here it is, http://www.pbase.com/coreyl/69_750s third picture.

Dave
69S
 
L.A.B, that's a very nice link, but I have trouble with this. "September 1969 saw the contact breaker moved to the front of the timing cover and driven by the camshaft, the rev counter drive moving inboard as a consequence.

Why is my April '69, ID plate, with the breakers in the timing cover and the rev counter on the front of the timing cover (inbord)? Is this just a mistake in the article?

Otherwise it is very informative.

Thanks,
Dave
69S
 
DogT said:
L.A.B, that's a very nice link, but I have trouble with this. "September 1969 saw the contact breaker moved to the front of the timing cover and driven by the camshaft, the rev counter drive moving inboard as a consequence.
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That just goes to show-even the NOC makes mistakes! I think that should read: "September 1969 saw the Fastback model contact breaker moved to the front of the timing cover....." etc.
 
maximini said:
I just received a dating certificate on my '68 commando. It was around the 175th bike produced. It says that it was dispatched May 1968. I was trying to find out if that is the same as the date it was built or just the date it left the factory. If it was the date that it left the factory does anyone know when it was built?
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Can't speak to '68 model production, but I have a copy of one page from '71. The build completion date was several days to weeks before ship date.

Example: build date 7.10.71 151677 Berliner S.O. R/D shipped 29.10.71

This is a roadster with color S.O. (?) built 7 Oct 71 shipped to Berliner (US east coast distributor) 29 Oct 71
 
The Plumstead records show the first batch of 16 Commandos being dispatched on 18 April 1968. These dispatches continue to the end of September 1969, with just a few in early October 1969. There is a Commando shown as dispatched to the Milan show on 28 October 1969 from Andover. So it looks like production was at Plumstead from April 1968 to Sept 1969, with a few bikes being dispatched in early Oct 1969 and no dispatches after Oct 1969. So I presume the change over to Andover happened in Oct 1969.
If you have frame/engine numbers in mind I can see if they appear in the Plumstead records.
Thanks for the link to the photo. I think I have seen another publicity shot with London scenes (Big Ben ?) in the background.
 
Steve Wilson's Norton book includes a photograph captioned : "Goodbye Woolwich. July 1969, and the gang at the old Matchless factory in Plumstead with the last machine built there, a 750 Commando 'S' model."

Strangely, I can't find any photo credits listed in the book to verify but I'd suspect a published image from one of the weeklies.

Nortons certainly used to road-test at Bracebridge Street (except during the war years when engines were run up on the local coal gas supply). I'd suspect that if it tailed off in the latter days at Woolwich, it was more a symptom of the industry at the time than a difference between Norton and Matchless philosophies.
 
Going back 9 years to this string due to my very early ‘69 750 S newly acquired. Is it logic and correct that up the 20M3 engines came from Plumstead, Woolwich while all of the 20M3S engines from Mar ‘69 750 S onward came from Wolverhampton? I say this as my Mar ‘69 first month of 750 S production does not have a “P” stamp on the engine number although the motorcycle was assembled at Woolwich (Norton Villiers Ltd London on the red ID plate).
 
illf8ed said:
Is it logic and correct that up the 20M3 engines came from Plumstead, Woolwich while all of the 20M3S engines from Mar ‘69 750 S onward came from Wolverhampton?
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Apparently not.
According to Roy Bacon's 'Norton Twin Restoration' book the first 20M3S is supposed to be "131257".

"First Wolverhampton engine (engines with P suffix from Plumstead)" was "134108".
 
L.A.B. said:
Apparently not.
According to Roy Bacon's 'Norton Twin Restoration' book the first 20M3S is supposed to be "131257".

"First Wolverhampton engine (engines with P suffix from Plumstead)" was "134108".
Click to expand...

I believe 134108 was the first 20M3S Wolverhampton engine in a fastback. What I suspect is since 131257 which was a 750 S and this model had 20M3S engine from this number all the 750 S engines came from Wolverhampton (no "P") and all fastback 20M3 engines up to 134108 came from Woolwich , Plumbstead Rd and should have the "P".
 
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