Please, I need help with timing and many other things...

First, let me start by saying that I am completely new to a Norton. I own a triumph bonne and a small bsa, zundapps, I have had an enfield; but I have never owned a Norton, nor known anyone that had a Norton. But I am mechanically inclined and know enough about brit bikes to get me into trouble, and most of the time back out again...
I bought a barn find 71 commando with a seized motor 2 years ago next month, and spent the last two years rebuilding it when I had the time and money. It was mostly stock, and mostly there. Here is a photo from the day I picked it up...



I have rebuilt the motor, new wiring harness, coils, carbs, changed over to a sparx electronic ignition and regulator/eliminator... many many many many things, besides the obvious cosmetics. Here is a picture from a couple weeks ago. I have since also added some real Norvil rear sets.



Ok, this weekend was supposed to be "the weekend" and I was going to get it running. Went thru, tightened up bolts, fluids, double checked everything... 12.4v at the battery, all lights and switches working, pulled the plugs and checked to make sure I had spark, good and blue and bright. Put gas in. Said a prayer, bragged it would start first or second kick... Well, I wouldn't be on here if it had started. Three grown men going over this bike taking turns kicking it and adjusting the sparx plate and kicking more. Kicked it till the freaking kick lever broke. (No joke, had to weld it back together)

First, can you Norton owners that also own Triumph Bonnes, can you tell me if the Norton is supposed to be that much harder to kick? It seems like it is twice as hard to turn over as my Bonne. The compression seems outrageous. And it doesn't seem to cycle thru that much when you kick. My bonne, you will get a phut phut phut out of one kick. The Norton, just one phut if I have it on the correct stroke. It is so hard to kick, I have to get this bike to be a one or two kick bike, lest I require a knee transplant before I even turn 35.

This Norton seems impossible to get to b.t.d.c.. The triumph is easy, it has a pin you can drop in thru the casing to the crank. I could find no hint in the crappy book I bought on Nortons. The instructions from Sparx said to set that rotor piece to line up with a hole in the plate at b.t.d.c., but since I can't find it, I went and tried 'reverse engineering' and set it to absolute tdc and would adjust backwards. I could find no detailed tutorials online. Switched the plug wires around, just in case. I am sure that it is timing that is my problem. I could get it to backfire plenty of times. Caught my k&n airfilter on fire. Could get it to fire thru the exhaust, puffing out smoke. But never got a good phut phut phut phut. Not once. Kicked it a hundred times. So I come to you gurus looking for help. There has to be a smarter way to do this than just by kicking and adjusting, kicking and adjusting. I tried bump starting it a couple times. Got it to phut phut phut phut a bit, it seemed like it was close, because it wasn't backfiring thru the carbs, it was all tail pipe. It wanted to start. Adjusted the plate, tried bump starting it again and it backfired and literally snapped my chain. It was unbelievable. Put the bike away after that.

So, in summary, I need help with timing. Those who have electronic ignitions, how the hell did you put them on and get timing? Those that have Nortons and can compare to Triumphs, is the compression that much higher and does it not cycle thru stroke like the trumpets? At least I know my valves are adjusted and seated properly, because this thing is tighter and tougher than a bull's behind.

Any questions or clarifications on the above, please ask. Need to know more about the bike and modifications to formulate a response, please fire away.

Help me take my first ride on a Norton. Help me finish the bike. No one else did the work on this machine but me and my dad. I don't want to take it to a shop.

I sympathise with you on this issue - my rebuilt 920 was a pig to start until I got the timing spot-on. If you remove the circular front inspection cover on the primary chaincase outer cover you should find a built-in degree-marker - remove the spark plugs and turn the engine over slowly - at one point you'll see a marker on the alternator rotor pass-by (the marker is normally a 1/4 inch line embossed on a slightly raised surface on the rotor). It's a good idea to mark this line with bright paint to aid visibility. Turn the engine until this marker lines up with the 28 degree point on the scale. This is where the ingnition should trigger (fully advanced) - most electronic systems specify 28 degrees (the same as with points) but Boyer state 31 degrees with their system. Some systems (e.g. Tri-Spark) have a handy LED which lights at the triggering point - I don't know about Sparx etc.

Note that in my case I found that the built in degree scale was non too accurate (about 3 degrees out) - I used a dial-guage to check this -

It's best to recheck the timing with a strobe once you've got it running.

I also find that the engine can feel absolutely 'dead' when it doesn't fire and kicking gives a very 'wooden' feel but then on the next kick it then fires up no problem.

HTH

My bike is a one kick bike and I am a blockhead...so we know it can be done.

Get yourself a degree wheel and set it up off the alternator nut. Make or buy a stop tool to put into the spark plug hole that stops your piston before it reaches the top. Then set up a pointer off the cylinder so that it reaches your degree wheel. Now rotate the engine by hand forward until it stops, check number of degrees, rotate it backward until it stops, check number of degrees and adjust the degree wheel. Do this until it comes to a stop at the same number before and after TDC. Once you have the degree wheel spot on, you can remove your piston stop and rotate the engine until the degree wheel shows 28 BTDC.

I used this method, after someone here helped me out, to get mine set up to both check my timing marks on my primary and set up my EI. It takes some messing around to set up, but is easy once you get going.

Russ

Here is a degree wheel you can print off:

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~tee/ramva/degreewheel.pdf

The degree marker in the inspection hole and the mark on the rotor should be good enough to get it to run. You should really get the degree wheel and by various methods you can discover TDC and then 28BTDC. When you figure it out, make a note of where it is on the degree marker. It can be as much as 6-8° out. The Norton is a bear to kick over unless it is going to fire at the right time. I can start mine with Crocks on, but if it is not going to start, it's like hitting a brick wall. You may need someone to help you time it first time and make sure you are getting the correct side to fire at the right time too. When it does start, you'll be wondering what was so hard about it.

Good luck, once you get it running, you'll fall in love.

Dave
69S

Real quick, because I am at work now, thanks for the replies thus far, and also to clarify, there is no degree wheel or markings in the primary/stator. I guess at some point in the past, that disappeared. I am starting from scratch. I will try to make one with that link provided, thanks...

There are two marks on the alternator rotor. Is it possible use the wrong one and be 180deg off?

P.S. I think the instructions you're using might be for a Triumph.

Shouldn't be that hard to kick. Pull primary cover and see if it is tight at the crank or at the clutch/gearbox side. Check primary chain.

Check to see if you have 10 thou play between the rotor and stator "all the way around".

Check timing chain. This is notorious for being tight after putting the timing cover back on. A sacraficial cover is sometime needed if the idler spindle bore is wow'ed or a little loose to properly adjust.

ALA hobot, you should be able to push the kickstart through by hand (2 hands for mortals) with appreciable effort.

I am posting a link to an Ebay auction because it has a good picture of a rotor. If you look at 9 and 3 o'clock positions you will see what the marks look like. They are 180 degrees apart but I don't think it should matter if your EI is sparking both plugs (wasted spark) at the same time.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Rotor-Lu ... 53e7c7b0ec

Get back to basics, try this first.

1. Remove the plugs. Lay them on the head and with the ignition on kick over the motor and check for a good spark. When kicking note that the motor should turn over easily. If its tight or has resistance, then there is something mechanically wrong.

The next step is the way to set up the timing with confidence and if you don't have a degree wheel.

2. To set your timing get this right once and it will never be a problem again. Set the bike up on the main stand or jack it up so the rear wheel is off the floor. Remove the outer primary case so that the rotor is clearly visible. The rotor will have (or is meant to have) 2 raised slot marks opposite each other. Take off the tank and remove the Inlet rocker cover. Put the gearbox into 3rd or 4th. Rotate the back wheel forwards and note the inlet valves alternatively opening and closing. Choose the left inlet valve to determine the compression stroke. It will go down and then as it comes up, look at the rotor and note as it comes around anti clockkwise, one of the slot marks will be approaching 3 o'clock, then 2 o'clock. Stop there. Get a marker pen, or nail polish and put a dab of paint on that slot. That is your timing reference for static and dynamic strobe timing. The piston on the left cyclinder is coming up to TDC. Put a screwdrive into the plug hole to be sure. Gently rock the back wheel forwards until the piston comes to TDC, and then rotate it back so that the slot mark is around 3 o'clock.

Note - if the opposite marker slot has been inadvertantly used, the bike will not run and tend to fire into the exhaust stroke, hence banging in the pipes.

3. Put the outer primary cover back on with the foreward timing hole exposed so you can see the degree plate in relation to the painted slot mark. Nudge the back wheel forward so the slot mark comes up to between 28 and 30 degrees. That is the full advance timing mark. The electronic ignition self sets the retard for starting and idle back to around 12 degrees or so depending on the product.

4. Check your timing case ignition trigger set up. Note the trigger spins anti-clockwise and usually most EI units specify that the trigger arms are in-line with the Norton logo on the timing chest as a static set up guide. Adjust the timing as neccesary, note very small increments are usually all that is needed.

5. You must use a strobe to check the timing advance as specified by the EI product. Best to ue a spare 12V battery for this. As the engine is revved, the stobe shoudl illuminate the painted slot mark as it registers with the degree plate inside the primary cover advancing up to 30 degrees.

Mick

Not all rotors have 2 marks, not sure when it changed, maybe 71 with the 6V coils and ballast. Mine has 12V coils, no ballast and no wasted spark.



Dave
69S

Dave , Crocs footwear according to my wife are a no-no as well as socks with sandals. Comfy yes but she assures me there will be no action if worn so take the advice here. You are right though about the early timing mark as I have a rotor in front of me from my early 70 S basket case. Magnetism still good and a solid center. Is it possible the timing chain was installed a link or 2 off as all you have to go by are tiny dots with a dab of 40 yr. old red paint ? We had this problem once at a rally until someone opened up the cover for a look and ... voila !

Didn't you see that video of all the Italians starting their Nortons in their loafers? Don't need paint marks, count the links or the pins, there are marks on both gears just for that purpose.



Might be something to look into.

Dave
69S

First, can you Norton owners that also own Triumph Bonnes, can you tell me if the Norton is supposed to be that much harder to kick? It seems like it is twice as hard to turn over as my Bonne. The compression seems outrageous. And it doesn't seem to cycle thru that much when you kick. My bonne, you will get a phut phut phut out of one kick. The Norton, just one phut if I have it on the correct stroke. It is so hard to kick, I have to get this bike to be a one or two kick bike, lest I require a knee transplant before I even turn 35.

Click to expand...

My buddy Wes has '69 Bonnie and its a step on delight gear ratio compared to the serious down thrust of disadvantaged Norton gear ratio. Yet once ya get the declicate sweet spot of timing dialed it, Cdo's can be hand started because they fire mid way through stroke. But A Commando is a real man's motorcycle in anyway ya care to measure it against the rest.

A straw or shrink wrap length better to stick in plug hole to sense piston rise then drop, then back and forth less and less until ya can't feel it move - then check which rocker arms are slack for which jug is at TDC on compression, then mark the correct rotor indciator line. A degree wheel is then put on and aligned to 0 and a knife slice mark on stator, then ya can back it up 28' to 32 depending on modle and then knife slice mark that on stator. Helps to put red polish dot at ends of these lines. With crank set 28-32 bTDC didle your ignition plate so it sparks when engine backed up by rear wheel and then turned forward for a spark then look to see how close it lands to lining up on mark and diddle a bit closer. At this one may almost start. Creep the time plate one way by tiny tiny amounts and give her a carb tickle and 2-3 kicks, if not running, tweak plate a eency bit and repeat 2-3 kicks and repeat till obvious not good, then reverse plate back to where ya had it and tiny tiny tweaks the other way kicking till it makes correct noise and starts. Then ya try to keep running and tiny tiny amounts tweak time until smooth idle and good response to throttle. Aim for 1st kick starts and a bit of carb tickle and cracked throttle. Once running can put a light on it and see where it falls and try fine tuning but may not run as well as just by ear/feel.
Mark that postion on timing plate and TS case to get back in ballpark next time.

Can't forget plugs can get fouled during failed half ass firing. Must have extras on hand. Low volts battery makes most electro ign. go bonkers time wise.
Once runing then ya diddle the carbies. Oh yeah all that bouncing around can jiggle other stuff loose too, ugh. I constantly wonder if I'm man enough to own one.

Again, thank you to all my new Norton friends. There is a wealth of information provided here.

I had to replace the rotor when I built the motor, some idiot cut the wires on it too short to do anything with it. The rotor on the bike now does have the two opposing marks, however, there is nothing inside the primary or on the primary case/inspection cover that has any other sort of mark for reference. If there was ever some sort of degree plate or markings, it is long gone. I did not know that it was supposed to have one, since I have no experience with Nortons. It has been a while since I replaced the rotor, but I vaguely remember that one can only install it one way exactly, so the rotor marks should be in the correct place. I will probably have to do what was suggested, and use that 360 degree wheel. But there were many tricks on here suggested that will help me get this thing right, and there isn't a doubt in my mind that with this advice, I should be able to get it to the correct BTDC.

I may look into checking my timing gear before I get back into it. Just in case that is off, and I get the darn thing to fire, and screw something up. I really thought that I was getting it close to where it was supposed to be, but no luck. Maybe it is indeed a mechanical problem also.

Lastly, I was sniffing around another forum where someone was posting about Sparx electronic ignitions, and there were a bunch of posts complaining about how the instructions say to put the black and white wire to the right terminal and the black and yellow to the left, but in fact the instructions (or the harness) were wrong, and it was the other way around. If I get thru all of this and find out that the freaking installation instructions were wrong, someone is going to get a very strongly worded letter from me. Anyone else that uses Sparx run into this problem?

Regarding how hard it is to kick the Norton over, I have seen conflicting reports from different people in this thread. Some say it is easy and can be started by hand, others have said it is like kicking a brick wall. I can easily turn the kick start by hand when the plugs are out, as expected, but with the plugs in on a compression stroke, I, a 200lb man, can stand on the kick start and smoke a cigarette and pick my nose, and remain towering over my minions around me. I don't think it is a mechanical issue, lest it would be tough with the plugs out too. I am thinking that maybe things are just super tight right now after the rebuild, and may relax a bit after break in period. It is punched and increased compression ratio.

Please keep the suggestions, ideas, and insights flowing. I am learning a lot. I will report back soon after I have had a chance to try out some of these things. If I run into problems, maybe I can post some pics of what I am looking at while working on it? Can you guys even see the two photos I posted in the original post? I can see them here on my computer, but they did not display when I was checking this thread thru the day on my phone.

Thanks again.

No, can't see your pictures at all.

Sounds like you need one of these. They aren't exactly the last word in accuracy, but it'll get you up and running.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Norton-C ... 0375617917

Ugh, the factory scale position has long been reported by way too many to vary in a hand full degrees or more when compared to degree wheel TDC indexing. So to just put one in still requires degreeing to nail dial down or mark it to proper registering. I write like its second nature but I suffer same freaking 180' out of phase errors or wrong jug on contact breakers when too much time has passed, let alone first time through.
Part of Commando mental-emotional yoga to me is being forced to start from scratch time and time again till it works or fault found. I find marking the stator w/o the dial, so marks in same plane of focus is easier than aligning a moving mark behind the dial. Alas static timing is still too crude but to get it started then teen weeny tweaks up/dn till best you can get, then look and see where marks land.

I lost a good part of a day trying to verify TDC, because I'd switch alternator stators, bad one was mounted and marked with leads at standard 4:00 postion but the replacement one had been mounted and marked with lead at 2:00 and dang TDC by degree wheel did not line up on new one any way I mounted it, ugh.
So I mounted it in standard position and did whole ritual to eventually get mine to hand start, once was enough that way though.

You can do like hobot says and mark the stator. Personally, I'd still get the degree marker and install it.



I have found that, with points anyhow, the static timing is more than adequate to get them started. Fine tweaking with the strobe. According to my workshop manual "Normally the LEFT contact breaker set in the distributor (to which a yellow and black wire is attached) is used for ignition on the DRIVE SIDE cylinder." It doesn't have to be that way though, it will just confuse the next guy. I don't know about the Sparx. Mine starts and runs fine even though the AAU is somewhat worn and I can't get a positive solid strobe mark. You should be able to push the engine through TDC by standing on the KS and giving it some muscle (I'm 185 and hobot is lighter). I find it best to just get it over compression and return the KS lever back up and then give it both barrels, I even stand on the KS with my right leg and the left leg standing on the left peg so it will go through the next compression stroke with my weight, but usually it starts helping once it fires and then you wonder what the fuss was all about. They are a real bear if you are just trying to push it through without ignition. Like hobot says, if it doesn't start with 3 kicks or no poots, it's not right, start looking for something else. Yes, they do need good ignition wires too, I had a problem the other day with the ignition switch, the resistance went up by maybe 0.15 ohms and it would not start, you need full voltage at your coils.

Dave
69S

Even when Wes and i finally got the timing in starting ballpark, we still had to tickle the carbs a bit or it wouldn't fire after setting a few moments between time tweaks. This of course risks flooding plugs so another way to prevent firing up on just a few test kicks. Of course you have to have a fully warmed engine to set idle and final best timing... Its also said that if a cold one don't need choke are a tickle then its set too rich once warmed up...