Pazion Puzzle failure

Switched out the fired Tympanium with just some new terminal ends then eagerly opened Pazion SureFire for the easy desert part of the day before riding off into the sunset. Mounted brain box under coil pack and dead on good terminals and shrink support and dead on correct wire connections. Dialed in the static time and only got puffs and spits, kicked harder to get a .73 sec roar I could just catch a hint of too retarded by time light. So tweaked plate adv a tiny bit and she fired up on mid kick and rev'd right up and shut right off ~.76 sec later. oh oh. Pulled plugs kicked over 100 rpm but no sparks. oh oh

We checked wires, power in power to earth paths, key, kill, fuse and trigger leads, and static timed again the turned on and kicked through to get great bright big bluewhite parts, several times, then it went dead as a door nail.

Scratched ends and checked all again, even stabbing white neg power lead in to box to see it getting juice to the box, BUT no coil power out when kicking through or static.

Put back on static start setting put in plugs and Wes gave Trix and go and
she fired right up after a few kicks, rev'd right up for ~.75 sec > silent.

Remembered one Pazion report with leads switched internally so switched trigger leads color code and still no spark.

I hate being in this condition, everything two boys did checks out, but for the new part. What is left to do, Wes and i got trapped in shed in storm so diddled till tears and both conclude it ain't our fault. Hope MAP will replace Pazion and see if really an issue with the one we failed with. Its a really slick easy clean install too. Not really having much fun with Nortons and friends, more testing them and myself and missing riding to all sorts of places and things going on.

I don't like hearing reports like this.

Sounds like the negatives posted re: Sparx, when my success has been near perfect with them.

As i said, I Hate being in this position/condition again, when first doubt must always be with me or my buddies faults/errors, but nothing can be found wrong with what we did - after many hours and cycles of re-doing rechecking and retrying. We both are competent to get points and Boyers to work until they wear items out.

Pazion is a temporary stop gap on Trixie as preferred long term ignition is index and hard chrome the AAU slots and pins and use transistor switching so contact breakers only handle relay current and last forever more.

I always wondered about those low-volt points-triggered mini electronics; sure don't hear much about them over here...

They still exist and were the 1st step in "electronic" ignitions way back when. Next step was IR LED triggered ignitions then the magnetic pulse coils or Hall effect with electronic advance. Ms Pee has optic trigger digital PowerArc.

Here's some data to fill us both in.
http://basilisk.chaosnet.org/motorcycle ... ition.html

Here's Paizion's versions
http://www.pazon.com/ignition/energy-booster-ignitions/

http://www.gavner.se/html/ignition.htm
You would need 2 of them, one for each set of points and you would probably want to go back to non-wastes spark, not sure that would cause any issues.

Dave
69S

Try putting double earths on the left coil. Make sure one is real good to the head and the other to the frame. You also got 6V coils? Check also the Black Yellow and Black White into the terminal block on the timing plate are deep in the screws firm on the copper wire.

Mick

Try putting double earths on the left coil. Done did it and tested.

Make sure one is real good to the head and the other to the frame. Done did tested.

You also got 6V coils? Yep with ballast and condensers out the circuit.

Check also the Black Yellow and Black White into the terminal block on the timing plate are deep in the screws firm on the copper wire. Done did and then even reversed in I had a rare internal reversed unit. Wes carries a wide scope tool kit and had the electronic size driver to fit right in for sure secure.

Wes was the one kicking it when it fired up the two occassions, He said it fired while kicking down so was easy and the rev'd right up to like 3000 rpm then shut right off. Twice same behavior. He said the timing felt dead on as we'd measured it and not to mess there anymore. We tested that the lights stayed on durring kicking to see if systemic power failure but nope good bright lights just no sparks. Kill works on/off too.

6v Coils were working with the points and Pazion did run for a couple instances and sparked brightly a couple kick overs, so what can logical experienced thinking handy men conclude but some fault in the new item. We wanted to also test if the charging system we restored but couldn't do that either. I hate being in this position. Wes is one tough booger but the mental dilemma and the hard kicking laid him on shed entry pad mumbling out loud the impossible findings but for that one new item. He also had to put of with my swearing about ever getting sucked into Nortons.

i could send the Pazion to someone to install, the hardest part is just re-wiring coils, and see if its a dead door nail to them too. Monday I'll call MAP and tell em the next to impossible seems to have occurred and take the vibes it takes to get a replacement within the 7.5 yr warranty. ugh. Ain't pulled in out yet, gave it a few good trys today just for sport as still dead silent. I cleaned the shed instead of riding.

Go all the way back to the battery connection and start looking for a loose connection somewhere along the way. In fact, hot wire it from the battery to bypass the switches, etc.

Could be the old dodgy fuse that LOOKS good to the eye...

Well dear sir we tested for steady power flow to and from the Pazion and didn't find an fault but the fuse suggestion is good one, I didn't check this time but have had a good looking one go bad inside its terminals. Gave intermittent fine function and then intervals of nothing. Lights and meter stayed on while kicking and tugging and jerking wiring. Will check-replace fuse later today just to be totally completely convinced its the Pazion and not me or Wes or Trixie's fault. Off to call MAP for next step in Trixie saga.

Yeah, I had a funky ignition switch and it dropped the voltage so much the coils weren't getting enough to fire. Hot wiring would have fixed it, but I cleaned the switch and that worked too. If you have a good VOM, test the resistance from the battery (disconnected) to the coil and hopefully you get less than 0.2 ohms. Or check the voltage on the coils when trying to start compared to battery, or check voltage from battery terminal to coil while starting, should be minimal.

Dave
69S

Battery only ran down to 12.1 v, more than enough to start. Where voltage could be found it was over 12 v, BUT - biggest BUTT, No voltage could be detected at the coils with key turned on. Got 12+v into the Pazion black box and HT and spark plugs are fine, so just leaves that new item in between 12 neg and battery + earth. I could only assume that until Pazion in turned 100+ rpm it don't switch on coil power.
Battery was hooked up proper just key off to install so no reversed voltage spikes.
Wes and I can only rely on the fact it did fire off and run even for .75 sec, which if we'd wired bad or mis timed it'd spit sputter only. MAP not answered phone or message I left a few hours ago. I get some mental ease that there have been reports of Pazion failure right out the box, yet so rare I must question my self as Wes has too. Pazion is so simple a cave man can do it, so what's that imply about me and Wesley.

Called MAP and told to diagnosis it myself via these instructions. Will try it tonight so maybe can get another before another weekend of life lost to drudgery. pretty much already repeated the test but for ID'ing which component is shot. My luck it will all check out and still not work. I warned Wes about associating with me and mechanics but he says always good to learn something and gets a laugh out of my problems, until he has to expend unreasonable effort for no results too. I do want to have him along for a test ride, which could be to the vintage event a couple hours ride away. Not looking good to make it on my own.

http://www.pazon.com/news/9/SUREFIRE-FAULT-FINDING.html

Steve,
Sounds like you're homing on on the possible cause. Not sure if its already been mentioned, but have you bypassed the ignition switch? The simple thing to do is fix a wire to the Neg battery terminal and connect it to the White (power) on the Pazon box. Make a good firm connection at both ends. Its worth making up one of these as a road side emergency kit anyway. With the spark plugs out resting on the head, kick over and see if they spark.

Mick

ML, next spark failure diagnosis checks are beyond merely testing power and earth and proper connections. Next must ID which component has failed to kick in guarantee replacement. Power is constant and good and already tested by two points units install and ride on THE Gravel about 25 miles, no problemo but for not immediately settling back to stable idle, which is a Problemo. I bought a digital VOM today to make the Ohm values easier to judge. Later tonight will pick it part and report both here and MAP. Thanks for caring though.

Well test results are in, it says I'm not competent to own a Commando.
Everything checked fine on test list.
12.90 v hot battery, neg 12.87 v reaching white power wire into brain box,
current through the box power shows up at +earth terminal of 2nd coil in series,
56.3 & 56.4 ohms across each trigger coil, 112.5 ohm through them both, near the 55 and 110 good values.
both plugs snap brightly by brushing trigger leads together and
the rotor magnets attract S pole of compass,
nothing loose or broken or even dirty.
Yet this is the set up that fails to spark plugs when power on and kicked like heck.
I can't tell MAP I found a fault in what they sold. What's next besides no riding some more.
Young goat almost stepped into car path today, maybe fate protecting me.

hobot said:

both plugs snap brightly by brushing trigger leads together and
the rotor magnets attract S pole of compass,
nothing loose or broken or even dirty.
Yet this is the set up that fails to spark plugs when power on and kicked like heck.

Click to expand...

OK, I'm just assuming here we have a) Compression, b) Fuel and c) Spark. The motor should run and has run momentarily but quits. Its a matter as you mentioned of identifying which component is failing when you turn on the key and kick it over. First of all, I would bypass the key. Just hot wire it and tell us what happens.

Mick

Only thing wrong is me involved with Notruns. Power is constant full volts proper polarity, every connections made correct and conductive tight and all electrical magnetic test values spot on. i am depressed with my sense of self worth and wasted efforts dreaming away the riding season. No replacement nor refund or running in sight.

Dilemma unresolved nothing faulty can be detected but no spark kicking Pazion. i had Trixie with same wiring hand starting on points and even idling down fast too damn low with the first set of points and AAU, by the slightly spread static timing of each point compromising the AAU sticking. Had this happen 3x's times now to see the pattern. The closer I set to idea side each side the crapper Trixie got till not safe to ride w/o the engine drag going slow on loose stuff. Want someone to tell me what to do that I ain't already a bunch of times with double checking helper.
ugh and out.

I'm supposed to get my Pazon from MAP tomorrow, but will probably be late in the day. If anything occurs, I'll let you know. So far starting good on worn AAU. Timing wanders around 4-6° but runs strong and even so far.

Can you hook a V meter to the coils to see if you get voltage while you are kicking?

Boy, I didn't know this thing pulls current like a rear tail lamp. On my old system, that's pretty much. I need to hook a V meter to the battery while running so I can see what's really going on, the ammeter in the HL shell is very sporadic.

Dave
69S