P11 primary chain

I had personal experience with a Renold chain on my P11 Ranger - It failed at about 300 miles, separating at a median link and blowing a chunk out of the primary. Luckily, it did not damage the engine or crank case. Inspection of the chain showed a pin had not been properly peened, causing the outer plate on the one link to separate.

When I wrote Renold about it, they expressed no concern or offer to replace the chain, or even an interest in examining the chain.

It cost me about $150 to have the primary repaired, and I replace the Renold with a D.I.D. Gold chain at half the cost and nearly twice the tensile strength.

I would NEVER use Renold again.

That is what I'm trying to avoid. Is the second time I've heard of happening on these bikes.

My chain looks original and my bike only has 5000 miles but I will probably replace with brand new for precaution…….. using German Iwis type. When in doubt, it's best to replace and consider consumable all parts which can cause such destruction or accidents if they fail.

In this regard, Primary chain and Layshaft bearings specifically come to mind.

One thing is for sure, the reports of Renold quality, and that of the competition for that matter, vary wildly from crap to awesome & many shades in between. I personally have never had a problem in nigh on 40 years with Renold chain but I have had with all sorts from the likes of Regina, Tsubaki, DID etc. I'm not saying that every company does not produce the occasional "Friday afternoon" batch but no manufacturer produces perfect products all the time.

There are almost innumerable factors in motorcycle chain usage that can negatively affect it's performance, it's practically impossible accurately benchmark one against the other. The closest comparison would be to test under lab conditions but even that would not be a fair test as nobody rides their bike under such measures conditions. All you can do it tie your flag to the mast of what you believe would be best for your application and see how it goes.

If you're willing take a considered risk and not listen to doomsayers from any side, then give it a go. I've never been one to follow like a sheep, despite living in Wales , that's why I'm willing to try anything that might give me a longer chain life. I tried an o-ring chain on my Triton after being told it would be no good and although it was so fat it looked out of place, it worked fine but didn't do wonders for clearance to my underslung battery carrier and primary casing. I then went back to Renold Blue Box and have had no problem with that at all. The latest chain I'm trying is Renold Synergy so we'll see how that goes in due time I guess.

The box colour is not important. Renold never made motorcycle chain.....they did make a good
,no a bloody good, industrial. I suspect the old guy from Renold was Vic Doyle, a good friend of my father
who worked for Renold for many years.

They no longer have a presence in UK, manufacturing, and I am sorry the new batch of Renold is marked
Renold only, not Renold UK or Renold England, and is not good in my humble opinion.

Beware the Synergy chain as it is syntered bush, harden pin in honeycomb bush....figure it out.

Iwis did a similar product called megalife.......no longer sold to motorcycles by some dealers. (I never have
endorsed it.

O ring is designed to keep lube in not grit out.

I have been slaughtered on the forum before and expect to be again, good job there are many Norton
owners that are happy with my advice.

Andy

IF and I repeat IF I had a P11 and still rode motor cycles and were not so olde and knackered I would fit a 20mm dry running 8mm pitch Gates GT3 or if money were no problem Gates Polychain Carbon belt system employing a 3 or 4 friction plate diaphragm spring clutch which , being employed dry would give a clutch that would possess ALL the qualities such a device is suppossed to possess. I.E it will .....
1 NOT slip when fully engaged even when hot.
2 free off INSTANTLY WITHOUT DRAG whenever required, even when hot.
3 be EASILY operated by the user at all times.
4 possess the LIGHTEST rotating weight reasonably possible.
The great advantage, in my experience, of employing a belt on a road bike being that it allows us to enjoy a correctly working clutch.....
The only person I know of who has manufactured belt systems for P11s is Bob Oswald of Quiet Power Drives in the USA and he no longer answers either his home or workshop phone nor replies to e mails so I suspect he is no longer with us......either that or he is keeping a very low profile and if anyone has any FACTUAL info please let me know..

So speaketh The Belt Man

Wonder if his keyboard has a belt drive, certainly stuck in a never ending loop of hobby horses.

Does anyone here have experience with QPD's primary belt drive kit for P11? What was the selling price?

A point I have not seen made regarding chain and its failures is owner incompetence.
Not long ago I asked the rather senior belt industry Gentleman I have consulted for decades the following question .....my very olde disengaged brain thought of it whilst slurping a cuppa ......' What effect on belt life does an incorrectly tensioned belt have?' As is normal / usual the Gewntleman started his reply with ..'Ah we did testing on this very subject decades ago...I can probably find the results and send a copy if you want but basically we found that a correctly tensioned belt has a life 3 to 4 times greater than that of an incorrectly tensioned belt'. I suspect if you were to ask the same question of a chain manufacturer you would get a similar reply. I often cringe when I see some advice given regarding belt tension...clearly some people are incapable of reading the belt manufacturers recommended tension data......its on the web so there is NO excuse....
Ever spent a few days sorting out all the different BSA/Triumph second hand primary chain cases in a large British bike spares emporium?? I did many years ago and was amazed at how the great majority had chain wear marking inside them suggesting that the majority of owners were totally incapable of adjusting ther primary chain correctly.
Many years ago I was talking to the friend who ran Triple Cycles and we talked about owner incompetence and he stated that he could take the average triple motor and obtain a power increase on the dyno simply by aligning and tensioning the primary sprockets and chain correctly.......
How many people remove their secondary chain every 1,000 miles to clean and relube it as per the Renold instructions given in their `Motor cycle Chain Maintenance' booklet for example. I bet most simply take a new chain and fit it....is not the oil they are covered in a preservative oil rather than a lubricating oil?? It certainly is not chain grease!! So how many owners start their rear chains on the way to premature failure from the first moment of fitting them?? How many apply oil to the outer of the rollers on a very regular basis to reduce the shock loads as each chain roller strikes the sprocket tooth it is engaging with? Is that not what chain spray grease was inverted for, nice and clingy stuff?? There are or were when a friend was service manager at Rotary Norton rotaries with over 80,000 miles plus still on their original Renold chain and sprockets but of course Rotary Nortons ran the secondary chains in an oil bath chain case and such things do not give the poser race bike look do they.....
The only treason I was given by the Service Manager for Triumph introducing engine oil into the primary chain case was because of t6he high number of bikes found going through the service dept to have totally dry rusty chains due to owner incompetence.
Every time I hear of a chain failure the first thing I think of is owner incompetence and today I phoned a friend in business for decades servicing / repairing Nortons etc and asked him how many owners in his opinion are capable of adjusting their chains correctly......he replied 30%.
Next time someone tells you about a chain or belt failure wonder about their competence FIRST rather than blaming the chain or belt manufacturers product. Mind you there is a lot of crap chain out there.
Regarding National Standards for such things as belts and chains......I was told by a Gentleman on such committees that they simply represent the MINIMUM agreeable values that they can all agree upon and I believe he has on occasion been called upon as an expert witness in court cases.
Personally when Renold stopped marking their chain Made in England or simply UK I would recommend D.I.D. chain but that was a long time ago.....Of German made chain old Ted Bloomfiewld Of Motor Cycle Shop in east London once said to me that the Germans never could make chain and was why they lost the war!! I(am sure that all the vast number of WW2 Germaqn motor cycles a friend had including the half track lumps all had shaft drive..alog with reverse gears ......Of course I wish I had a few 25 ft rolls of Perry chain......now that was decent well made chain.. in my opinion that is.

I have to agree with Mr Leadbetter on most of his post.

I have always said DIN is a minimum standard and every bit of chain, crap or good,
conforms.

Original Renold was app 1/3 above standard and the iwis still is.

Problem with DID, Daido Corp, is that many old Brit machines need crank links to get
the chain to fit, DID dont do them although they sometimes appear on flea-bay.

Andy

It's been a while since I poked my nose into this thread but I'm interested in people's opinion on the following points :-
1. If Renold re-certified their original British bike OEM chain (Now called Blue Box) as ISO10190 & published technical details of it's strength etc. to be superior or at very least equivalent to the best of the competition, would you classic guys buy it.
2. If Renold applied for ISO10190 for their Synergy chain (6 times stronger & longer lasting than blue box), would you buy that. (Incidentally, it uses solid extruded bushes & not sintered). Possibly confused with Syno chain for the food industry which does have a sintered bush.
3. If Renold started making GP type chain again (thicker plates, pre-stretched), would you buy it. (Incidentally, all Renold chain is pre-stretched nowadays).
4. If Renold made O/X-Ring chains equivalent to or superior to the best of the competition, would you buy it ?
5. Would it matter whether the chains are made in the UK where it was invented or Germany where all the tooling was shipped to when the UK factory was closed.

I am genuinely interested in your opinions & although I suspect to be flamed as ever, please keep this civil.

Lights touchpaper & waits !

I'll take the bait and be polite as well. Since these P11's are now collectible and not accumulating significant mileage, I chose to replace with good quality Japanese O-ring chain for the primary drive on my Atlas, ES-2 and when my P11 121555 gets opened up for an overhaul, I'll use one there too. These chains are often used on high performance quads they're usually very reliable and only need to be kept clean. Better is better.

C-ya, Jer

ClassicChainsGuru said:

It's been a while since I poked my nose into this thread but I'm interested in people's opinion on the following points :-
1. If Renold re-certified their original British bike OEM chain (Now called Blue Box) as ISO10190 & published technical details of it's strength etc. to be superior or at very least equivalent to the best of the competition, would you classic guys buy it.
2. If Renold applied for ISO10190 for their Synergy chain (6 times stronger & longer lasting than blue box), would you buy that. (Incidentally, it uses solid extruded bushes & not sintered). Possibly confused with Syno chain for the food industry which does have a sintered bush.
3. If Renold started making GP type chain again (thicker plates, pre-stretched), would you buy it. (Incidentally, all Renold chain is pre-stretched nowadays).
4. If Renold made O/X-Ring chains equivalent to or superior to the best of the competition, would you buy it ?
5. Would it matter whether the chains are made in the UK where it was invented or Germany where all the tooling was shipped to when the UK factory was closed.

I am genuinely interested in your opinions & although I suspect to be flamed as ever, please keep this civil.

Lights touchpaper & waits !

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