Oil grade
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= Good quality 20w/50 multigrade or, depending on ambient temperature, SAE30/40/50 monograde.
As monograde engine oils are still recommended by some professional engine builders, like Norvil: http://www.norvilmotorcycle.co.uk/techtalk27.htm
Andover Norton also recommends monograde engine oil: http://www.nortonmotors.de/ANIL/SI%20Oil.htm
As monograde engine oils are still recommended by some professional engine builders, like Norvil: http://www.norvilmotorcycle.co.uk/techtalk27.htm
Andover Norton also recommends monograde engine oil: http://www.nortonmotors.de/ANIL/SI%20Oil.htm
Regardless which grade oil you choose, make certain it has a high zinc content. You won't find oil with high zinc at your local discount auto supply.
A few years ago I spoke at length to an engineer from Spectro Oil. It was kind of an eye opener on oils as far as old British iron goes. That and a more recent conversation I had with the owner of Web Camshafts convinced me my newly rebuilt Norton will only see Torco MPZ 10-40. BTW, probably the best thing you can do for the oil in your Norton is to add a thermostatically controlled oil cooler. A cooler without a thermostat on a street bike is worse than no cooler. This was brought to my attention by the aforementioned engineer.
A few years ago I spoke at length to an engineer from Spectro Oil. It was kind of an eye opener on oils as far as old British iron goes. That and a more recent conversation I had with the owner of Web Camshafts convinced me my newly rebuilt Norton will only see Torco MPZ 10-40. BTW, probably the best thing you can do for the oil in your Norton is to add a thermostatically controlled oil cooler. A cooler without a thermostat on a street bike is worse than no cooler. This was brought to my attention by the aforementioned engineer.
Hortons Norton
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Look for the oils that have the SG rating, Chuck.
I know some Norton riders put in "normal" multigrade with no problem (Castrol or Whatever) But The Bike shops all sell special Motorbike multigrade oil.
They told me that there is an anti foaming agent in there that is especially developed for motorbikes. Is this just another marketing ploy or does it have merrit? Why should the Sinc contents be high?
Just like to get some knowledge in the slick world of Engine oils....
They told me that there is an anti foaming agent in there that is especially developed for motorbikes. Is this just another marketing ploy or does it have merrit? Why should the Sinc contents be high?
Just like to get some knowledge in the slick world of Engine oils....
Hortons Norton
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Some years back the government made the oil company's take the zinc out of most motor oils, (SG) This is not good for older engines that have the type of lifters and tappets like Norton's do. When you have two flat surfaces of the same steel that slide on one another it needs the zinc. This is what I have been told and it makes sense since most newer engines don't have this type of valve train. If this is wrong please correct me. Chuck. :wink:
This sounds like a perfect opportunity to flog my favorite..Redline!
"As part of Red Line's all-new Powersports line, these High Performance Motorcycle Oils are fully-synthetic formulas specifically created for the high demands of the latest high-revving four-strokes motocross bikes and ATVs, Sportbikes, and V-Twins. Available in popular viscosities of 10W40, 20W50, and 20W60, these ester-based products contain the anti-wear chemistry demanded by mechanics and enthusiasts. The levels of zinc and phosphorus blended into these lubricants are among the highest in the industry and combine well with Red Line's chemistry, designed to seal piston rings for more power, fight fuel dilution, extend drain interval and provide stronger film strength over a range of temperature. This oil also features lower levels of friction modifiers for superior wet clutch operation. Excellent thermal stability, oxidation resistance, cleanliness, and ability to lubricate hot metal make Red Line High Performance Motor Oil a superior lubricant. Recommended for JASO MB, API SJ, SG, & SH."
"As part of Red Line's all-new Powersports line, these High Performance Motorcycle Oils are fully-synthetic formulas specifically created for the high demands of the latest high-revving four-strokes motocross bikes and ATVs, Sportbikes, and V-Twins. Available in popular viscosities of 10W40, 20W50, and 20W60, these ester-based products contain the anti-wear chemistry demanded by mechanics and enthusiasts. The levels of zinc and phosphorus blended into these lubricants are among the highest in the industry and combine well with Red Line's chemistry, designed to seal piston rings for more power, fight fuel dilution, extend drain interval and provide stronger film strength over a range of temperature. This oil also features lower levels of friction modifiers for superior wet clutch operation. Excellent thermal stability, oxidation resistance, cleanliness, and ability to lubricate hot metal make Red Line High Performance Motor Oil a superior lubricant. Recommended for JASO MB, API SJ, SG, & SH."
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I don't profess to have the definative answer, but our local Norton club meeting had a presentation from a (longserving and apparently knowledgable) rep from a local but national oil company, who said in essence that multigrade oil run in an engine with roller bearings i.e. Norton twins, would essentially reduce the e.g. 20/50 oil back down to its base state oil of say an sae 30? after possibly 1,000 or so miles.
To summarise, after a 1,000 or so miles the multigrade would be essentially a monograde, but possibly thinner than one you would choose if you had chosen a monograde in the first place, and this is due to the action that roller bearings have on multigrades. Apparently most modern cars run the crank on plain bearings.
I am sure that this theory will be shot down in flames by people who are a lot better read than me, but this is what we were told in essence without the fine detail.
The company sells monogrades for classic bikes as well as a plethora of multigrades, synthetics etc, and a cynic may say that they have to sell the monograde to someone (Norton owners?).
Having said that, probably the vast majority of Nortons use multigrade oils with no obvious ill effect, certainly my first Norton Commando which I owned for 15 years had nothing but multigrade oil, butI have used monogrades in my present Norton for the last couple of years also with no obvious ill effect.
To summarise, after a 1,000 or so miles the multigrade would be essentially a monograde, but possibly thinner than one you would choose if you had chosen a monograde in the first place, and this is due to the action that roller bearings have on multigrades. Apparently most modern cars run the crank on plain bearings.
I am sure that this theory will be shot down in flames by people who are a lot better read than me, but this is what we were told in essence without the fine detail.
The company sells monogrades for classic bikes as well as a plethora of multigrades, synthetics etc, and a cynic may say that they have to sell the monograde to someone (Norton owners?).
Having said that, probably the vast majority of Nortons use multigrade oils with no obvious ill effect, certainly my first Norton Commando which I owned for 15 years had nothing but multigrade oil, butI have used monogrades in my present Norton for the last couple of years also with no obvious ill effect.
I just called the tech line on the oil I am using (xd3-extra 40) a esso product and asked what the zinc(sg) content was. I got .0112 as the answer, so I figure about 1/10 of 1%. When I called redline I couldnt get through. Does anybody know what their % of zinc is?
I insure my classic bikes with Hagerty Insurance. They specialize in classic and antique vehicles. In their most recent quarterly magazine, Fall 2008 pages 30 and 31, they have an article concerning zinc (ZDDP) in motor oils as it is a concern for old car owners too.
According to the article as of 1988 the American Petroleum Institute (API) the amount of ZDDP was certified up to 1200 Parts Per Million (PPM). However by 2004 these levels were brought down to 800 PPM because higher levels decreased catalytic convert life.
The article listed the following oils with higher levels of ZDDP:
1. Oils rated for both diesel and gasoline engines from Shell and Chevron have up to 1000 PPM
2. Valvoline VR1 Racing Motor Oil has up to 1300 PPM. (This is what I use personally, mono grade in my Commando and their multigrade in my other bikes.)
3. Castrol Syntec 20/50 full synthetic has up to 1200 PPM but check to see that the rear label says Recommended for Classic Cars
4. Red Line Synthetic has about 1300 PPM
5. Brad Penn Penn Grade 1 Racing OIl, a mineral oil, has about 1500 PPM (bradpennracing.com)
6. Classic Car Motor Oil contains 1500-1600 PPM (classiccarmotoroil.com)
The article also mentions a ZDDP additives such as ZDDPLUS (zddplus.com) or Cam-Shield (camshield.com)
Hope this helps.
According to the article as of 1988 the American Petroleum Institute (API) the amount of ZDDP was certified up to 1200 Parts Per Million (PPM). However by 2004 these levels were brought down to 800 PPM because higher levels decreased catalytic convert life.
The article listed the following oils with higher levels of ZDDP:
1. Oils rated for both diesel and gasoline engines from Shell and Chevron have up to 1000 PPM
2. Valvoline VR1 Racing Motor Oil has up to 1300 PPM. (This is what I use personally, mono grade in my Commando and their multigrade in my other bikes.)
3. Castrol Syntec 20/50 full synthetic has up to 1200 PPM but check to see that the rear label says Recommended for Classic Cars
4. Red Line Synthetic has about 1300 PPM
5. Brad Penn Penn Grade 1 Racing OIl, a mineral oil, has about 1500 PPM (bradpennracing.com)
6. Classic Car Motor Oil contains 1500-1600 PPM (classiccarmotoroil.com)
The article also mentions a ZDDP additives such as ZDDPLUS (zddplus.com) or Cam-Shield (camshield.com)
Hope this helps.
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I think this would be an appropriate place for this....Oil Additives!
http://www.thegsresources.com/garage/gs_additive.htm
http://www.thegsresources.com/garage/gs_additive.htm
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This subject interested me, so I passed one of the replies to my brother-in-law who is an engine designer, who in turn asked a lubrication expert at Imperial College, here's the reply, but I think a good quality multi, changed often, at your discretion/expense and depending on usage will keep the old bus running along!
From Reggie's mail
'To summarise, after a 1,000 or so miles the multigrade would be essentially a monograde, but possibly thinner than one you would choose if you had chosen a monograde in the first place, and this is due to the action that roller bearings have on multigrades. Apparently most modern cars run the crank on plain bearings.
I am sure that this theory will be shot down in flames by people who are a lot better read than me, but this is what we were told in essence without the fine detail'.
reply (the IC expert)
It;s true that some of the oil passing through a rolling-sliding EHL contact (gear/cam) will be degraded to some extent. This is why multigrade gear oil VMs have much lower MWts than engine oil ones.
However so far as I know degradation will be much less (maybe nothing) in a pure rolling contact - we never checked it but could do so.
'You need to know (i) what fraction of the total oil will have passed through roller bearing/raceway contacts after 1000 miles; (ii) what fraction is degraded. You can work out (i) based on the tribology course you took at IC. The second will have to be complete guesswork.
Also when a polymer is degraded by passing through an EHL contcat it tends to split in 2, forming two lower MWt polymers. These will still have some thickening effect. An interesting PhD project'.
The answers out there but I think i need to go back to college to fully understand it!
Mike
From Reggie's mail
'To summarise, after a 1,000 or so miles the multigrade would be essentially a monograde, but possibly thinner than one you would choose if you had chosen a monograde in the first place, and this is due to the action that roller bearings have on multigrades. Apparently most modern cars run the crank on plain bearings.
I am sure that this theory will be shot down in flames by people who are a lot better read than me, but this is what we were told in essence without the fine detail'.
reply (the IC expert)
It;s true that some of the oil passing through a rolling-sliding EHL contact (gear/cam) will be degraded to some extent. This is why multigrade gear oil VMs have much lower MWts than engine oil ones.
However so far as I know degradation will be much less (maybe nothing) in a pure rolling contact - we never checked it but could do so.
'You need to know (i) what fraction of the total oil will have passed through roller bearing/raceway contacts after 1000 miles; (ii) what fraction is degraded. You can work out (i) based on the tribology course you took at IC. The second will have to be complete guesswork.
Also when a polymer is degraded by passing through an EHL contcat it tends to split in 2, forming two lower MWt polymers. These will still have some thickening effect. An interesting PhD project'.
The answers out there but I think i need to go back to college to fully understand it!
Mike
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This thread may be dead by now, but as I've just discovered this forum I thought I'd contribute my 2p worth in case anyone's listening.
I'm currently rebuilding a Dominator and was intending to use Duckhams Q 20W/50 as I have in my Commando for years and did in the Dominator in its previous life, but I thought I'd do a bit of research first.
I followed up the suggestions from this thread and other sources, and have decided to go with a medium-additive (API SD to SF) SAE 40 monograde for both bikes in future, for the following reasons:
The problem with multigrades seems to be degradation of the viscosity improvers by heat in air-cooled engines, leaving effectively a thin monograde oil. So it seems better to start with a thick monograde that stays thick.
Some synthetics such as Redline seem to get round this, but are very expensive.
The advice not to use multigrades with roller bearings I think relates more to roller big ends rather than main bearings because of the stop/start motion of conrods. At any rate, I've never had to replace either the roller mains or plain big ends on the Commando after 40,000 miles of running with multigrade.
I've read that high levels of zinc are only beneficial in the extreme event of metal-to-metal contact i.e. if the oil film breaks down. High levels of additives are said to increase formation of ash deposits on valves, plugs and pistons. If this is true, an API SD to SF additive level should be better than Redline's API SL/SM.
Both bikes have cartridge oil filters, so detergent oils should be suitable.
I think SAE 50 monograde (Norvil) might be too heavy except in very hot weather (what's that?)
So SAE 40 monograde it is.
I'm currently rebuilding a Dominator and was intending to use Duckhams Q 20W/50 as I have in my Commando for years and did in the Dominator in its previous life, but I thought I'd do a bit of research first.
I followed up the suggestions from this thread and other sources, and have decided to go with a medium-additive (API SD to SF) SAE 40 monograde for both bikes in future, for the following reasons:
The problem with multigrades seems to be degradation of the viscosity improvers by heat in air-cooled engines, leaving effectively a thin monograde oil. So it seems better to start with a thick monograde that stays thick.
Some synthetics such as Redline seem to get round this, but are very expensive.
The advice not to use multigrades with roller bearings I think relates more to roller big ends rather than main bearings because of the stop/start motion of conrods. At any rate, I've never had to replace either the roller mains or plain big ends on the Commando after 40,000 miles of running with multigrade.
I've read that high levels of zinc are only beneficial in the extreme event of metal-to-metal contact i.e. if the oil film breaks down. High levels of additives are said to increase formation of ash deposits on valves, plugs and pistons. If this is true, an API SD to SF additive level should be better than Redline's API SL/SM.
Both bikes have cartridge oil filters, so detergent oils should be suitable.
I think SAE 50 monograde (Norvil) might be too heavy except in very hot weather (what's that?)
So SAE 40 monograde it is.
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commiedommie, again just from my experience, this year I fitted an oil pressure gauge to the Norton,and I changed my oil weight to straight 40 and was running it during our "summer."
What I did notice was that on only 10 miles of motorway usage two up and cruising at about 70/75mph, the oil pressure was dropping to just below the 1,000rpm to 10psi ratio, i.e. 4000rpm was giving about 35psi, which although not frighteningly low, I wouldn't want it to be much less. As soon as I went back onto normal "A" roads the ratio was restored.
Whether or not this is a reflection of the state of my big end journals, or oil pump or even the accuracy of the gauge I can't say, but for next summer mine will be getting straight 50.
Just a thought, and Norvil do recommend straight 50 for Summer use.........although that doesn't necessarily make them right :?
Confused :?: Well that's normal for me. Just my thoughts on the subject.
What I did notice was that on only 10 miles of motorway usage two up and cruising at about 70/75mph, the oil pressure was dropping to just below the 1,000rpm to 10psi ratio, i.e. 4000rpm was giving about 35psi, which although not frighteningly low, I wouldn't want it to be much less. As soon as I went back onto normal "A" roads the ratio was restored.
Whether or not this is a reflection of the state of my big end journals, or oil pump or even the accuracy of the gauge I can't say, but for next summer mine will be getting straight 50.
Just a thought, and Norvil do recommend straight 50 for Summer use.........although that doesn't necessarily make them right :?
Confused :?: Well that's normal for me. Just my thoughts on the subject.
Reggie,
I've found similar oil pressure with my 72 Combat with a fresh bottom end. This is when temperature is above 80° or so. I finally went to with an oil cooler and a thermostat. Helped considerably. You can check the temperature of the oil in the tank with a meat thermometer Get a rubber stopper, like the ones used in chem lab. Stick the thermo. in it, then push the stopper in the tank neck. If the oil temp gets much over 200° it will start to thin out. Pretty much whatever oil you use. Too cold oil temp. is a problem, as well. Although pressure stays up, any moisture doesn't get cooked out. That's the reason for a thermostat. Keep in mind, the oil temp elsewhere in engine, like the head, is at a higher temp. then in the tank.
I've found similar oil pressure with my 72 Combat with a fresh bottom end. This is when temperature is above 80° or so. I finally went to with an oil cooler and a thermostat. Helped considerably. You can check the temperature of the oil in the tank with a meat thermometer Get a rubber stopper, like the ones used in chem lab. Stick the thermo. in it, then push the stopper in the tank neck. If the oil temp gets much over 200° it will start to thin out. Pretty much whatever oil you use. Too cold oil temp. is a problem, as well. Although pressure stays up, any moisture doesn't get cooked out. That's the reason for a thermostat. Keep in mind, the oil temp elsewhere in engine, like the head, is at a higher temp. then in the tank.
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I wish I knew the definitive answer to this! Last year done a complete rebuild of my trusty 850 Commando (Hadn't been apart for over 80000 miles) I change my oil (Straight 40 or 50 dependent on the weather) every 1500 miles or so. The bottom end was in surprisingly good condition but I replaced everything anyway. I then went on a 4000 mile trip to Romania & back, the temperatures were up in the low 40 deg C for a good part of the trip and the bike was using some oil. When I came back I stripped the top end as I'd burnt a valve with possibly dodgy petrol and also decided to check the rings. Barrels off and horror the Camshaft & Follower for No3 Lobe looked like someone had been filing it. It looks very like lubrication break down. Moral of this story is 2000 miles max before changing oil and if your going to hot places a cooler would be good (Living in Scotland its normally not an issue!) The next BIG trip i do on the commando I'll be taking a filter along! Oil change is far more important than specific Mono vs Multi argument IMO
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