Oh my, this happened

grandpaul said:

Would that be the mod that uses BSA lifters and beehive springs, etc?

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concours said:

I thought I saw bronze lifter guides you had posted a while back...

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I was sent Triumph lifters which have smaller diameter shafts and a smaller sized surface area riding in the the lifter block and on the cam. JS was out of BSA lifters. At the time I thought I had BSA lifters. Was told the Triumph lifters are not supposed to make a difference. (I wrote something else here but deleted it. It wasn't nice.)

Engine has a complete JS2 cam kit in it with springs valves and so on. Several other performance related parts, but I made a cardinal mistake when I first started the engine after it was complete, and there's more stupid I just remembered happened on my very first test ride. I've beat myself up enough about it so you guys can save your bandwidth.

baz said:

I'd say 120 would be easily possible with your setup
I can't see anything on your build that's lacking
Fingers crossed that the damage isn't too bad
Maybe even a clean up and new shells

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Thanks that would be as good as it gets.

BSA & Triumph lifters are nearly identical, The 60s & 70s ones that I've seen, anyway...

grandpaul said:

BSA & Triumph lifters are nearly identical, The 60s & 70s ones that I've seen, anyway...

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Similar, but different, as Schwany says, Triumph ones have a smaller diameter shaft and a smaller pad block. I’m not saying they won’t work (thousands of Triumphs testify to that) but the BSA version is preferable in this mod IMO.

@Schwany, if your lifter blocks are the source of your oil contamination, at least it’s an easy fix, and a chance to fit some BSA lifters, assuming they’re available somewhere ?

In fact, coz the BSA lifters are bigger, it’s possible to machine your current lifter blocks to take them, but it may well be quicker, and quite probably cheaper, just to replace them.

Edit: JS is showing BSA lifters as available now. I also found a U.K. seller offering NOS ones, but at £68.00 each, and with shipping to the US, they’d be much more expensive than JS.

And FWIW… SRM have no plans to produce any more of their versions, I asked ‘em.

I probably still have a large Folger's coffee can full of BSA & Triumph lifters. I ought to send all the good ones to Megacycle to have them cleaned up, then sell them...

I know I threw out 20# of valves and springs, most of which (valves) were rebuildable...

Fast Eddie said:

Similar, but different, as Schwany says, Triumph ones have a smaller diameter shaft and a smaller pad block. I’m not saying they won’t work (thousands of Triumphs testify to that) but the BSA version is preferable in this mod IMO.

@Schwany, if your lifter blocks are the source of your oil contamination, at least it’s an easy fix, and a chance to fit some BSA lifters, assuming they’re available somewhere ?

In fact, coz the BSA lifters are bigger, it’s possible to machine your current lifter blocks to take them, but it may well be quicker, and quite probably cheaper, just to replace them.

Edit: JS is showing BSA lifters as available now. I also found a U.K. seller offering NOS ones, but at £68.00 each, and with shipping to the US, they’d be much more expensive than JS.

And FWIW… SRM have no plans to produce any more of their versions, I asked ‘em.

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Yep all that.

My plan B fix is: I'll send the stock lifters out to have them radiused for the JS2 cam and plug the lifter block grub screw holes.

Schwany said:

Yep all that.

My plan B fix is: I'll send the stock lifters out to have them radiused for the JS2 cam and plug the lifter block grub screw holes.

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Or get GP to dig you 4 good BSA lifters out of his stash ?!

No easy fix for stupid. Both bronze lifter blocks are worn a little. That said I doubt the lifter blocks are the only source contributing to the bronze cloud in the oil. Engine is/was too noisy at idle for it just to be the lifter setup. Not complaining. Things happen everywhere in an engine when an oil pressure gauge line blows off and oil pressure goes to 0 at 70 mph.

Trying to work up the motivation to pull the rest of the engine out of the frame. It's easier to do with the gearbox out, and to get the TTi gearbox out the swing arm has to be removed on my P11. Lot of relatively simple work, but work just the same. A bike lift would come in handy, but nowhere to put it when I got done. Woe is me.

Schwany said:

No easy fix for stupid. Both bronze lifter blocks are worn a little. That said I doubt the lifter blocks are the only source contributing to the bronze cloud in the oil. Engine is/was too noisy at idle for it just to be the lifter setup. Not complaining. Things happen everywhere in an engine when an oil pressure gauge line blows off and oil pressure goes to 0 at 70 mph.

Trying to work up the motivation to pull the rest of the engine out of the frame. It's easier to do with the gearbox out, and to get the TTi gearbox out the swing arm has to be removed on my P11. Lot of relatively simple work, but work just the same. A bike lift would come in handy, but nowhere to put it when I got done. Woe is me.

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A 1-ton chain hoist and some straps is my preferred way, remove/install frame over engine, laid on side. Then when installed it is super easy to work close up, vs a big lift that you have to lean way over to get to the bits. Or a small lift that never seemed to work for my bikes and looked 'iffy'.

gpzkat said:

A 1-ton chain hoist and some straps is my preferred way, remove/install frame over engine, laid on side. Then when installed it is super easy to work close up, vs a big lift that you have to lean way over to get to the bits. Or a small lift that never seemed to work for my bikes and looked 'iffy'.

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Good suggestions. I have an engine hoist, an engine balance bar, and straps, but have never used it for motorcycle work.

I carried it over from a low work table and put it in whole last time I did it. I may not be that tuff anymore. I guess I'll find out.

I used a transmission jack close to the frame to balance the engine once I carried the engine from the table to the jack before scooting it over into the frame. Once in the frame I think I used a floor jack to move the engine up and down while securing the engine plates. Seems like a lifetime ago, but it's only been about 2 years. My technique doesn't do the paint on the frame any favors though. Foam rubber plumbing insulation unfortunately just gets in the way. Laying the bike on the side is not required. What would be better doing it like I'll most likely be doing it is a Featherbed frame. Whole lot of room in a Featherbed engine bay.

I'll get er done one way or another. Ibuprofen and whiskey to the rescue.

Schwany said:

Good suggestions. I have an engine hoist, an engine balance bar, and straps, but have never used it for motorcycle work.

I carried it over from a low work table and put it in whole last time I did it. I may not be that tuff anymore. I guess I'll find out.

I used a transmission jack close to the frame to balance the engine once I carried the engine from the table to the jack before scooting it over into the frame. Once in the frame I think I used a floor jack to move the engine up and down while securing the engine plates. Seems like a lifetime ago, but it's only been about 2 years. My technique doesn't do the paint on the frame any favors though. Foam rubber plumbing insulation unfortunately just gets in the way. Laying the bike on the side is not required. What would be better doing it like I'll most likely be doing it is a Featherbed frame. Whole lot of room in a Featherbed engine bay.

I'll get er done one way or another. Ibuprofen and whiskey to the rescue.

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My N15 was a walk in the park compared to my GS1100E engine remove/installs, and other big 4s. Those are a very tedious fit into the frame, the angles have to be just right, and the engines weigh ~200lbs. I hear of people levering them out with wood from the side, mangling fingers and destroying paint and think 'why'? I can micro-adjust every angle and not get single paint chip, and do it alone. Sounds like you have gear that could be put to good use on it, best of luck!

Lay down your truth and check your weapons. Stole that phrase from Jackson Brown because I like it.

I just got on the fence about boxing up the bronze lifter blocks an going back to a SS cam with flat lifters. Got the ball rolling by surfacing my old cut corner flat lifters. Did it by hand on a kitchen cutting board with 600 wet dry sandpaper, then finished up with 1000 sandpaper. Only took 4 hours. Another red neck rodeo engineering feat with unimaginable results. The SS cam will beat the heck out of those lifters even if surfaced by whoever your favorite machinist is. All 4 of the lifters had 3 witness divots in them. Initial touch, highest lift, and closing bounce. It is a violent bump stick. Anyway, I'm still thinking about it., cuz I could always get the old lifters radiused and keep using the JS2 cam. First world problems.

Are you saying that the only witness marks you found was on the bronze guide blocks, and everything else was still good?

o0norton0o said:

Are you saying that the only witness marks you found was on the bronze guide blocks, and everything else was still good?

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Only one saying that is you.

Cases are still together. I'm not in a big hurry to finish up fixing whatever it is that needs fixing in the engine. I'm just fooling around with some ideas.

Bronze lifter blocks are not being reused again. On closer examination they are worn more than witness marks. The lifters and lifter pads look OK, but I wasn't planning to reuse the Triumph lifters ever again either.

I'd be really surprised if the rod big end shells don't need to be replaced. If the crank needs work, the engine will become a fall/early winter project and I won't be test riding it again until next May or June. If the crank is OK I might get in a couple of test rides this year.

Do you have an oil filter on a P11?? My 70 commando did not have one. I suppose it wouldn't stop contaminated breather oil from going back through the system even if it would stop contamination on the oil return line...

o0norton0o said:

Do you have an oil filter on a P11?? My 70 commando did not have one. I suppose it wouldn't stop contaminated breather oil from going back through the system even if it would stop contamination on the oil return line...

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Yes I have a spin on oil filter on the P11. It's been on there for a long time. Possibly since the 1980's and for sure since 1992.

BTW the bronze is very fine and mostly color since it passes through the oil filter. I did not test it for abrasive properties. That said I have not been buying the most expensive oil filter made. I use an oil filter made by Wix.

Anywho, back to the garage. I need to finish removing the valves and clean up the head so I can make some modifications with my dremel as well as fill the bowl like space between the intake valve spring pockets with epoxy. Won't make any sense to most, but filling that bowl would be more like a STS FullAuto head is done between the intake valve pockets. Theory for the Dremel modifications is to get oil out of the head and back to the sump and return quicker while the engine is running. Shade tree engineering.

I'm a little tempted to use the early Commando head I have laying around, but it has 28mm intake ports. I used it in the 90's when Radford sent my P11 head to Europe to get it ported and the Commando head was a bit disappointing. I've opened up the ports a little (not hogged them out, Al), so it might actually be nice cruising, but it won't work as well at high RPM as the head ported by Barlow.

Keep at it Schwany. I now have 2 laid up that I cant bear to strip see what happened. Not while I've got 2 more to build & lots of shit to play with. Keep on with the diy, love hearing about it.

Now that bike needs you - I am jealous, sorta. I'm in an unfamiliar place, all my bikes work quite well, and don't need much except riding, and a bit of cleaning. I am getting the itch for a derelict bike to fix up.

gpzkat said:

Now that bike needs you - I am jealous, sorta. I'm in an unfamiliar place, all my bikes work quite well, and don't need much except riding, and a bit of cleaning. I am getting the itch for a derelict bike to fix up.

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I don't have the motorcycle itch like I did 30 years ago, but I still can't let it sit in the corner of the garage for too long.

Chris said:

Keep at it Schwany. I now have 2 laid up that I cant bear to strip see what happened. Not while I've got 2 more to build & lots of shit to play with. Keep on with the diy, love hearing about it.

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I haven't had a lot of bikes in the garage for more than 20 years. Time flies because seems like it wasn't that long ago, but it was.

One British built bike is more than enough these days. About the same as 5 modern bikes maintenance wise.

You have a lot more energy for the old motorcycles in your mid-70s than I do. And yeah just looking at one bike that worked great for a while knowing it has to come apart is no fun. I can't imagine 2, plus projects. You have my respect

Schwany said:

I haven't had a lot of bikes in the garage for more than 20 years. Time flies because seems like it wasn't that long ago, but it was.

One British built bike is more than enough these days. About the same as 5 modern bikes maintenance wise.

You have a lot more energy for the old motorcycles in your mid-70s than I do. And yeah just looking at one bike that worked great for a while knowing it has to come apart is no fun. I can't imagine 2, plus projects. You have my respect

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Chris is beyond help Schwany, the meds don’t work any more !

He’s only divulged the tip of his addiction iceberg here