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Norton trouble

Discussion in 'Norton Motorcycles (Modern)' started by MAK, Jan 8, 2020.

  1. Welshrugby

    Welshrugby

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2018
    It would have been interesting to have been a fly in the wall at the Metro Bank meetings to see why they decided to pull the plug when they did. Maybe they were tipped off at some of the practices reported of stripping parts from owners bikes to get other bikes looking finished in order to get balance payments or maybe they just didn't believe in the evolving business plan.

    I never met SG or SS but my gut feeling is that I do not believe that there was ever any intention to commit fraud, I believe there was good intention their to build the brand with the newer models and make everything right. The initial 961's and even the later 961's had their issues but I have always been dealt very fairly and all warantee issues were sorted, right up until the day of admin.

    Who knows, with a bit of extra time, could they have got the Atlas moving, got money in from China, India and Japan and made the company a success, thus making the loans repayable and the pension money a good investment. Some obvious mistakes in hindsight was the expediture on the big country estate and TT racing, or was that essential to build the brand up again. The six Astons were definately excess to the extreme. The stripping down of bikes to get money was the last resort to try and keep the whole thing afloat, I wonder if we would have ever known about that (as bad as it was) if some more time was given.

    More info will come out in due course I am sure, current owners are concerned about thier own investments in thier bikes but all of us are I am sure feel deeply for pension holders involved in the demise as well as folks that put deposits down and made full payments towards bikes they may never get.

    Many are very angry right now with what has transpired, but my gut feeling as I say was that they were not doing this as a con, but just got it wrong and made very foolish decisions that will come back to haunt them in the coming months.
     
    Dannyy, Bluey72e and thesixthelephant like this.
  2. Bernhard

    Bernhard

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    IMHO it's time the SFO got involved and brought SG before a High Court Judge, he/ she will have powers to put SG under an arrest warrant if he fails to turn up in court, surely they have found some evidence to bring a charge of some description against him?
     
  3. Bernhard

    Bernhard

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    What do you consider to be legal about taking pension fund money and refusing to pay those people back when requested?
    He was deliberately putting this money into his own companys whilst he himself was the trustee of the pension funds- a direct conflict of interest!
    He did not stand down on this position until the pension Ombudsman ordered him to.
     
  4. Bernhard

    Bernhard

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    All very well you making this reply, but what you don't state is how many of those companies that went under is how many were subjected to inside company fraud of some description?
    According to the receivers of Norton there was £80,000 worth of high priced cars outside Donington Hall owned by Norton - where do you think the money for these came from?
    Also some suppliers have gone bust, because they were owned money by Norton, which in turn SG , lying through his teeth, was claiming suppliers had let him down. No wonder he was stripping customers bikes inside the factory down, a clear case of robbing Peter to pay Paul!
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
    jan nelder, trident sam and kommando like this.
  5. thesixthelephant

    thesixthelephant

    Joined:
    May 13, 2018
    I thought I was completely alone with that train of thinking. Me and Welsh Rugby are now in a Club of 2 that I fear is now fully subscribed. I feel gutted for all those who lost deposits or worse the full Sum, but I have slightly (only slightly) less sympathy for the lost pensions. That's down to greed or stupidity or both, why would you take money out of a pension company regulated by the FSA and give it to anyone on the promise of massive returns. It's not like the TV and Papers aren't full of warnings. A lot of people on this and other forums have had it in for Norton and Garner from the outset almost willing it to fail. Well it's happened, you got your wish, but Just maybe, his grand ideas, enthusiasm and self promotion were just a desire to make something we could all enjoy, and if(when) I'm proved wrong it will just be a sadder end to a sad story.
     
    Accnor73, Welshrugby and MxMartin like this.
  6. Bernhard

    Bernhard

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    See the inquest of the pension Ombudsman by those plaintiffs for a more in depth explanation of what went on inside Norton's misuse of the pensions money. At least two cronies of SG were jailed for it.
     
    kommando likes this.
  7. thesixthelephant

    thesixthelephant

    Joined:
    May 13, 2018
    I'm surprised Garner wasn't jailed at the same time. You seem to know your stuff but I will still allow him my benefit of doubt.
     
  8. Bernhard

    Bernhard

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    No I don't "know my stuff" as you put it, but when some dark things go on that we, until a few weeks ago, didn't know about, then being able to prove them as having suspicions are two different things. But the more that is uncovered you begin to realise it is going to get darker and darker as you start searching all the things that went on inside this company, which SG was the CEO.
     
    Voodooo likes this.
  9. MxMartin

    MxMartin

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2017
    I'm sort of in the same camp as you and Welsh, the production of the 961's has been bitter-sweet for many owners but for the most part problems have been sorted and the brand appeared to be gaining strength, but of course that could all have been a cunning plan to get as much funding as possible and stash it elsewhere.

    I couldn't give a fig about the number of Aston Martins he had, the first thing I did when I was a successful company director was go and buy me a brand new sports car. Nearly every farmer within a 100 miles of me claims to be hard up and how financially tough things are but every single one of them owns a top of the range 4x4 of one type or another. That's what business owners do lol
     
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  10. gchoppin

    gchoppin

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2017
    Just thought of something....... I guess Richrad 7 can go back to marketing 961 carbon fiber accessories without Norton messing with him. Just a thought.
     
  11. Bluey72e

    Bluey72e VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 8, 2019
    I posted in the CF thread a week ago, same thought ;)
     
  12. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    About your farmers and company owners Mark, sure they want a top spec car, they do need A car after all, and want to appear successful etc. All perfectly natural.

    If SG had AN Aston I doubt we’d be talking about it...

    But why did he have 6 Astons, 2 Range Rovers and 1 Jag ? (Bernhard, that’s LOT more than £80k by the way)?!

    Its that level of irresponsibility and disregard that gets people mad.

    I look at behaviour like that as an indicator... if he’s prepared to squander cash like that, in what other ways, and in what other amounts, has he squandered even more ?
     
  13. worntorn

    worntorn

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006

    Pretty sure t

    Ill add that he was never a successful company director with this venture.
    It seems like his lifestyle was all funded by money from others - pension money, bike deposit money and taxpayer money.
    The actual proceeds of his business effort and acumen appear to be a negative number.
    Do those who think it's all an honest adventure approve of the stripping of v4s brought to Donnington for minor warranty paint repairs etc?

    Glen
     
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  14. Madnorton

    Madnorton

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    They are possibly saving him for later for a higher court. They most probably could have jailed him, but the charge may not have been the worst that could be proven, maybe they are still working on those.
    A charity worker in Hampshire fleeced £265K from a pension and he has just been sentenced to 5 years.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  15. Bernhard

    Bernhard

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    Ooopphs! Like the accountants at Norton, I seem to have missed out a zero on that £80, 000 when taking into account Mr Garners toys!
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  16. Welshrugby

    Welshrugby

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2018
    I was under the impression he made his millions with the fireworks companies and used his wealth to purchase the Norton brand. Or was that all on the never never as well
     
  17. kommando

    kommando

    Joined:
    May 7, 2005
    A ponzi scheme works by giving enough people a good return to produce a veneer of success so their good reviews suppress those that have their doubts and even persuade them to part with their funds. By that method the scammer can operate for long periods, if they get greedy or funders loose faith and pull too much funds then eventually it must fail.

    Under SG Norton was run as a ponzi scheme, he produced just enough bikes to keep the show on the road to make it look like he was running a motorcycle manufacturing company, the end came when he could not support the pension schemes requests for refunds whilst at the same time keep building bikes.

    He was a scammer right from the start, he had none of his own funds involved and used others instead.

    Hard to believe anyone is still giving him the benefit of doubt.

    He was a no show at the pension hearing earlier this week.
     
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  18. storm42

    storm42 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2011
    You shouldn't mistake the naysayers vocal concerns about Garner, as having in any way a desire for Norton to fail.

    Not so long ago there was a fairly large bike meeting at Mallory, as you may or may not know, there is a time when a track has to finish making noise and this is strictly enforced, when the track closes, people often take the opportunity to walk the track and kids ride their bikes and play football on the track. At one two day meeting an Aston suddenly appeared and started to lap the track going sideways and spinning the wheels all the way round, all this was happening whilst the track was closed and kids were out on the track, although by now they were at the side watching. A disaster waiting to happen.

    Guess who was at the wheel!! This story came from a marshal working the meeting.

    On this earth there are Snakes, Reptile, scum and Garner.

    It was perfectly obvious to those of us that have brought some things to other peoples attention about the way Norton was run, that we would get a lot of flack for doing so, doing so without going down a liable route always watered down what was reported. Speaking out changed nothing and keeping quiet would have changed nothing, the path for Norton was clear and just a matter of time whilst run by Garner.

    I have owned Nortons for 47 years and I am not happy that the name might be going into storage yet again, so I for one take no pleasure from what is happening other than hopefully Garner might get his long over due comeuppance.
     
  19. Bodger

    Bodger VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    May 9, 2017
    In the US "successful" people don't own vanity cars. Instead their companies lease the cars with before tax dollars. On the other hand "normal" people are suckered into leasing vanity cars that they really can't afford and dont't need with lease payments that they make with after tax dollars. Of course most people don't have a clue how to negotiate a lease or compare its real price with an actual purchase.
     
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  20. Triton Thrasher

    Triton Thrasher

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    jan nelder likes this.

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