Norton Glory Days

Just got this photo from Tom Terry. From back in the days when Norton twins were terrorizing the road race tracks in Calif.

Norton Squad at Sears Point AHRMA National, about 1984. From right: Fred Eicher, Eric Swortsfigure, Tom Terry, Mark Wiesendanger, Jim Schmitt, Kevin?, Dave Niel?

With the infamous Mr. Jags Norton on the left end. Can't remember who the rider was for that race.

Those were the glory years for a lot of us. This is a picture of our bikes in the pits at Daytona in 1984 for my first AMA Battle of the Twins races. The yellow production racer and the black wideline featherbed were my bikes, and the red Commando in the front was Chris Scott's (owner of Supertwins shop in North Hollywood) ride. Chris and I had trailered the bikes out from California on a small 3-rail trailer meant for dirt bikes, blowing out the 12" trailer tires multiple time on the way there and back.



Fast forward a few years to 1990, and this is another shot of Nortons in a row at the Daytona AMA National. The two yellow bikes (including the ex-Jim Schmidt monoshock) are mine, the silver one belonged to my friend and racing buddy at the time, Mark Field, and the black one was Rob Tuluie's.



By the end of 1990 the glory days for Nortons were pretty much over in AMA road races. This is a picture of the monoshock bike with it's third place trophy at the 1990 AMA National at Willow Springs. That was the last Norton to finish on an AMA road race podium. Rob Tuluie was riding the bike for me (he was way faster than I was). That's him with the bike, and his girl friend standing behind. The half a guy on the right is me.



By 1991 AMA had cancelled the Pro-Twins (previously Battle of the Twins) classes, and AHRMA had taken them over. Nortons were always well represented in the AHRMA twins classes, and still are to this day.

Ken

In America, you must have some people with brains who organise road races. It is not rocket science to get a level playing field.
My mate Steve Oszko died last year - before he died he said to me 'you idiot, you have left it too late'. I only ever raced against him once, but he really knew what road racing was about. He was much more dedicated that I ever was. It is only since I have been retired that I have been able to do much about motorcycling. I just have to be grateful for what I have experienced - it has been excellent.
BOTT must have been really lovely, and it makes sense.
Until about ten years ago, I did not realise the potential in the Commando motor. I believe it might be fundamentally an excellent design. - That is silly, because I never believed in it - fuel injection and a decent EMS might really make it go.

With the Commando motor. I often wondered about the rod length to stroke ratio and the weight of the crank. However based on experience I believe they must be very correct, and I suggest the cylinder head is excellent.

I remember

jseng1 said:

Just got this photo from Tom Terry. From back in the days when Norton twins were terrorizing the road race tracks in Calif.

Norton Squad at Sears Point AHRMA National, about 1984. From right: Fred Eicher, Eric Swortsfigure, Tom Terry, Mark Wiesendanger, Jim Schmitt, Kevin?, Dave Niel?

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I remember Tom, Terry and Mark from NCNOC club days in the 80s. Watched them at Laguna Seca doing the BOTT.

Ah yes - the notorious Mr. Jags! Remember well.

jseng1 said:

Just got this photo from Tom Terry. From back in the days when Norton twins were terrorizing the road race tracks in Calif.

Norton Squad at Sears Point AHRMA National, about 1984. From right: Fred Eicher, Eric Swortsfigure, Tom Terry, Mark Wiesendanger, Jim Schmitt, Kevin?, Dave Niel?

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Was excess facial hair a compulsory rule of Norton ownership back then?

SteveA said:

Was excess facial hair a compulsory rule of Norton ownership back then?

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Spent so much time working on the bikes that we didn't have time to shave.

acotrel said:

With the Commando motor. I often wondered about the rod length to stroke ratio and the weight of the crank. However based on experience I believe they must be very correct, and I suggest the cylinder head is excellent.

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The Commando 750 was a pretty good design for the period. Toward the end of their heyday they came out with the short stroke 750 version, which was a little better rod/stroke ratio, and suited the Commando head design better, particularly when modified a bit by the tuners. It had a bit more horsepower potential for the racers. I'm not sure if it had any real advantage for street riders, trading off a little low end torque for more top end horsepower. But in stock form it still made a pretty nice engine for a street bike.

The heavy vs. light crank question is right up there with the oil threads for diversity of opinion and preference. I'm a fan of the heavier flywheel, but there are plenty of successful racers who prefer a lighter flywheel. I've tried both. They take a little bit different riding style, but both can be made to work quite well. For the street, I think the heavier flywheel makes for a smoother riding style, but, again, it's really just up to personal preference. Neither one is "better".

Ken

Well said Ken.
The stock bike can still leave traffic far behind with the twist of a wrist.
The motor was most definitely designed to be a sporty street engine, not a high rpm race engine. It's basic male human nature that we would take something that works very well and try to get more out of it somehow.
I'm guilty of that with the 920.
After looking at all of the compiled evidence, it seems that stock use and keeping the lid on rpms is the safest way to go.
A hot cam, some increased compression and headwork will up the bhp a little but will also push the useful rpm band up. Stock cases and crank do not like the higher rpm. You might get away with it on the street if only venturing up there for a few seconds now and then. If going that higher rpm route, I would want aftermarket strengthened cases and crank under me. In other words, a complete non Norton engine.

Not understanding that my stock bike made its max power at 5900 rpm, I used to rev to 6500-6700 quite often before shifting. I got away with that for years but finally figured out that it gets down the road quicker if shifted no higher than 6200. It's also a lot less likely to come apart at 6200 than at 6700.
Most of the time now though I keep it to 5000 tops for going thru the gears and about 4000 (70 mph) for covering long distances. They accelerate pretty rapidly just using 5000 as top rpm. That probably gives you 90% of the available acceleration without really stressing the engine much at all.

Glen

I'll add that I have been following some of the results of the big bore modifications to the new 650 RE.
One owner has built the ultimate high performance 865 RE Interceptor. Aside from the expensive 865 Kit, it has a long list of expensive performance modifications.
Those that ride the bike rave about the high torque output making the $12,000 + in mods well worth the expense.
The end result netted 48 ft lbs crankshaft torque at about 5000 rpm.
This is almost as much as a stock 850 Norton from the 70s!

Glen

When a race bike is being built, all the variables need to be rationalised and optimised. A major variable is the type of race circuit. I suggest a Commando-based bike might be better on a scratcher's circuit than a big open flowing one.
This video says a lot about racing with which I agree. The transition point in corners can be adjusted by altering the steering geometry. When the transition point occurs very early in corners and the bike stays more upright, smooth and strong power delivery is important. My bike is fast enough to keep up with the lead bunch in a race, but in corners, it is much faster. The reason it can keep up on the straights, is it enters the straights faster. When I enter a corner and immediately grab a big handful of throttle, that is very difficult to beat. It is not me- it is the bike. It steers itself. The rider adjusts to the bike and a good bike can make a dud look like an expert.

I am probably quite a good rider. There is one thing which I would never do - that is race a fast modern bike. I have got the wrong mindset.

worntorn said:

I'll add that I have been following some of the results of the big bore modifications to the new 650 RE.
One owner has built the ultimate high performance 865 RE Interceptor. Aside from the expensive 865 Kit, it has a long list of expensive performance modifications.
Those that ride the bike rave about the high torque output making the $12,000 + in mods well worth the expense.
The end result netted 48 ft lbs crankshaft torque at about 5000 rpm.
This is almost as much as a stock 850 Norton from the 70s!

Glen

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With motorcycles, it is worth always taking everything you hear with a grain of salt. Most opinions are subjective. The theory is the best motor in the best frame gives the best bike. But it does not quite work like that. What you see is not what you get. The worst historic racer is probably the Norvin.

Strange but I enjoy razing my 750 & reving it everywhere.
My 850 I love the tourqe & its quicker than my 750 but doesnt feel like it is.
But my 960 On fast flowing circuits is just a joy. Just drives & I dont go much over 6,000 revs.
Pick the bones out of that. BHR next season probably 5 or 6 Commandos to play with, which is what it's all about, racing parading with your mates. Enjoy it while you can.
Only 11 people at the club dinner this year. I used to get 30 to 40 ten years ago.
Again enjoy the Commando you use, where ever you use it!

Where exactly are people road racing classic Norton Commandos in 2024 on the West coast in the USA? Looks like AHRMA is concentrating on dirt racing.

Schwany said:

Where exactly are people road racing classic Norton Commandos in 2024 on the West coast in the USA? Looks like AHRMA is concentrating on dirt racing.

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Buttonwillow and Laguna Seca are the only two West coast races on the AHRMA schedule next year. Too bad it's shrunk so much. In past years I enjoyed AHRMA vintage road racing in the Western US at Willow Springs, Sears Point, and Thunder Hill in California, Firebird in Arizona, Las Vegas in Nevada, Seattle in Washington, Steamboat Springs and Pueblo in Colorado, Park City and Miller in Utah, and Sandia in New Mexico, and maybe a few others that I've forgotten. I noticed that the Buttonwillow race is being run in conjunction with AFM, so it will probably have a pretty good field. In the 20+ years I raced Commandos, they were able to be competitive in races with other organizations besides AHRMA. In California we also had AFM, AMA, ARRA, CCS, and WSMC races to choose from. I think we who were racing Commandos in those days were fortunate to live in a time that I don't think will be repeated.

AFM also has races in 2024 that include vintage and twins classes that suit a Commando, running at Buttonwillow, Thunder Hill, and Laguna Seca, and the CRA is running races in conjunction with track day events at Willow Springs and Buttonwillow in California, and Podiium Club in Arizona , with classes that you could run a Commando in.

Still some opportunities get some quality track time on an old Commando out here. At almost 82 years old, I think my days of flogging Commandos around a track are long gone, but still a chance for some fun for the rest of you, before it's all electric.

Ken

lcrken said:

The Commando 750 was a pretty good design for the period. Toward the end of their heyday they came out with the short stroke 750 version, which was a little better rod/stroke ratio, and suited the Commando head design better, particularly when modified a bit by the tuners. It had a bit more horsepower potential for the racers. I'm not sure if it had any real advantage for street riders, trading off a little low end torque for more top end horsepower. But in stock form it still made a pretty nice engine for a street bike.

The heavy vs. light crank question is right up there with the oil threads for diversity of opinion and preference. I'm a fan of the heavier flywheel, but there are plenty of successful racers who prefer a lighter flywheel. I've tried both. They take a little bit different riding style, but both can be made to work quite well. For the street, I think the heavier flywheel makes for a smoother riding style, but, again, it's really just up to personal preference. Neither one is "better".

Ken

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Absolutely Ken.

It’s been my conclusion / belief for a long while that the light crank vs heavy crank ‘thing’ is basically down to rider preference.

For me, I do not believe one or the other would make an iota of difference to lap times !

As I’ve mentioned before, personally I prefer the feel of a lighter crank, to me it makes the motor feel more crisp / free / eager and I like that.

But, I can definitely see how some would feel that it detracted from an important part of the Commandos character.

To summarise in a Norton context, if I had an 850 mile muncher, I’d want a stock heavy crank in it. If I had a 750 Combat, I’d want a light crank in it.

I suggest some people do not know how to race-change up through a gearbox. I think my friend is one of those. When I rode his 650 Triton, I believe it was faster than it ever was when he rode it. The heavy Norton crank can be used to advantage. With my bike, I get a surge on every up-change due to crank inertia. All I do is back-off slightly to take the load off the gears, press down on the lever as I open the throttle. The change is very smooth and immediate. As the gear engages, the crank slows and transfers energy. You don't get as much urge with a light crank. It can be done with wide ratios, but is less effective. I raced for about ten years with a light short stroke crank in my 500cc Triton - the Commando engine is miles better. With a 6 speed box, my 500cc Triton would have been faster than my Seeley Commando 850. I raced the Triton with both high and low gearing, and I knew it's potential. The Seeley 850 is much more pleasant, and its steering geometry greatly increases it's speeds in corners.

I never believed in the 850 motor, however it works well with a close box, because throttle response is not an issue when you lose less revs as you up-change. If the crank is spinning at 7000 RPM, and it slows 1000 RPM as you pick up the next gear -where does the inertia energy go ? I don't pull in the clutch and wait for the crank to slow down before re-engaging the clutch, so the change would be smoother. It is smooth anyway.