No gasket for primary cover?

jerrykap

jerrykap

VIP MEMBER
Joined
Jul 23, 2014
Messages
235
Country flag
Anyone successfully use Three Bond 1211 silicone gasket maker (the white stuff) to seal the primary chaincase with no paper gasket?

Like



Comment
 
Have not tried that goo. I've tried the original thin paper bag paper, a homemade 1/16" thick paperboard gasket, a homemade 1/16" cork gasket, and the current black and green faced coated paper gasket. Nothing worked. I'm very tempted to try some Permatex Right Stuff next time I have the primary cover off. It'll seal just about anything as long as both surfaces are clean before applying it. Very short work time though.

Only time I've had any success with my P11 primary case seal not leaking is during the periods the bike is parked and I'm not riding it. As soon as I go for a ride, it spits and I get 3 drops in a line as soon as I stop and put down the side stand.

I've read all the fantasy mine doesn't leak stories, but those tend to not be about the P11, and experience says that is very unlikely on a P11 because of how the foot peg is attached through the cases. Even with the peg brace to the lower frame rail, there is some downward pressure exerted on the outer cover when going over hard edged bumps. Not ideal for a sealing surface.

Try it and report back. Or are you saying you've had no success with Three Bond 1211, and want to know how someone has? I'm curious as well.
 
Wasn't there a recent thread from someone unable to remove a sealant sealed primary cover? Mk3 I think.
 
Schwany said:
Have not tried that goo. I've tried the original thin paper bag paper, a homemade 1/16" thick paperboard gasket, a homemade 1/16" cork gasket, and the current black and green faced coated paper gasket. Nothing worked. I'm very tempted to try some Permatex Right Stuff next time I have the primary cover off. It'll seal just about anything as long as both surfaces are clean before applying it. Very short work time though.

Only time I've had any success with my P11 primary case seal not leaking is during the periods the bike is parked and I'm not riding it. As soon as I go for a ride, it spits and I get 3 drops in a line as soon as I stop and put down the side stand.

I've read all the fantasy mine doesn't leak stories, but those tend to not be about the P11, and experience says that is very unlikely on a P11 because of how the foot peg is attached through the cases. Even with the peg brace to the lower frame rail, there is some downward pressure exerted on the outer cover when going over hard edged bumps. Not ideal for a sealing surface.

Try it and report back. Or are you saying you've had no success with Three Bond 1211, and want to know how someone has? I'm curious as well.
Click to expand...
Obviously working from memory only: As the lower curved footrest brace is bolted by longitudinal bolts parallel to the lower frame rail, isn't any initial movement outwards on the top one? Which of course should be minimized if not eradicated by being tightened sufficiently?
Can't remember mine leaking, but always with paper gasket and hylomar...
 
Schwany said:
Have not tried that goo. I've tried the original thin paper bag paper, a homemade 1/16" thick paperboard gasket, a homemade 1/16" cork gasket, and the current black and green faced coated paper gasket. Nothing worked. I'm very tempted to try some Permatex Right Stuff next time I have the primary cover off. It'll seal just about anything as long as both surfaces are clean before applying it. Very short work time though.

Only time I've had any success with my P11 primary case seal not leaking is during the periods the bike is parked and I'm not riding it. As soon as I go for a ride, it spits and I get 3 drops in a line as soon as I stop and put down the side stand.

I've read all the fantasy mine doesn't leak stories, but those tend to not be about the P11, and experience says that is very unlikely on a P11 because of how the foot peg is attached through the cases. Even with the peg brace to the lower frame rail, there is some downward pressure exerted on the outer cover when going over hard edged bumps. Not ideal for a sealing surface.

Try it and report back. Or are you saying you've had no success with Three Bond 1211, and want to know how someone has? I'm curious as well.
Click to expand...
 
You have it right...I think I'll try the 1211 and see how it does?
 
Schwany said:
Have not tried that goo. I've tried the original thin paper bag paper, a homemade 1/16" thick paperboard gasket, a homemade 1/16" cork gasket, and the current black and green faced coated paper gasket. Nothing worked. I'm very tempted to try some Permatex Right Stuff next time I have the primary cover off. It'll seal just about anything as long as both surfaces are clean before applying it. Very short work time though.

Only time I've had any success with my P11 primary case seal not leaking is during the periods the bike is parked and I'm not riding it. As soon as I go for a ride, it spits and I get 3 drops in a line as soon as I stop and put down the side stand.

I've read all the fantasy mine doesn't leak stories, but those tend to not be about the P11, and experience says that is very unlikely on a P11 because of how the foot peg is attached through the cases. Even with the peg brace to the lower frame rail, there is some downward pressure exerted on the outer cover when going over hard edged bumps. Not ideal for a sealing surface.

Try it and report back. Or are you saying you've had no success with Three Bond 1211, and want to know how someone has? I'm curious as well.
Click to expand...
The leak is designed as a safety measure. When you see the oil on the floor under the bike you wonder if there's any left inside and you are forced to check.
 
EstuaryBoy said:
Obviously working from memory only: As the lower curved footrest brace is bolted by longitudinal bolts parallel to the lower frame rail, isn't any initial movement outwards on the top one? Which of course should be minimized if not eradicated by being tightened sufficiently?
Can't remember mine leaking, but always with paper gasket and hylomar...
Click to expand...
I've been using a 20 penny nail, bailing wire, and some bubble gum for a top bolt. Obviously I need to make a correction. :)

Mine does not leak enough to drip after being wiped down and parked. Heat, vibration, and my weight on the footrest pounding down are what make it leak. I also use my back brake in conjunction with the front. The front isn't enough for stop lights or in a quick stops avoiding cars that stop short in traffic. That also puts excessive weight on the foot peg. I'm no ballerina when I ride.

I did not buy my P11 whole. There is some mix and match going on, and I had to replace the outer cover once. The hole for the top bolt did not line up with the hole in the inner case and I had to open it up. Not a source for the leak though. The outer case probably needs to go to a machinist and get surfaced, but the cases do pull together flat enough to work with a good heavy duty sealer because of the multitude of bolts that surround the case. I know I can minimize the leak to close to zero if I can work fast enough with the Right Stuff. The gaskets do not work worth a damn on my primary cases. No amount of sufficient tightening gets it done.

I tossed the highly regarded hylomar in the trash. I really don't like that product. But thanks for the advice.

I agree with Bodger and don't really care that much, regardless of how I sound. It's not hard to refill the primary. It takes about 2000 miles before it starts to get better check it low. I would prefer it go away on its own, but someday I'll have to do something about it.
 
Anyone game to convert the P11 primary to all Atlas. By all, I mean inner and outer covers, alternator mount, foot peg hardware, etc.

The Atlas tin ware does not look like it will hold oil any better than the hybrid primary covers, but I have made mine oil tight, and I have heard of others who have done the trick.

Slick
 
Another way to go would be to change out the primary chain to a much higher tensile strength x -ring or o-ring 428 chain and forget about keeping the primary chaincase topped up. But the build I'm doing now is for another friend/customer and he wants as close to new as possible.
 
Schwany said:
I've been using a 20 penny nail, bailing wire, and some bubble gum for a top bolt. Obviously I need to make a correction. :)

Mine does not leak enough to drip after being wiped down and parked. Heat, vibration, and my weight on the footrest pounding down are what make it leak. I also use my back brake in conjunction with the front. The front isn't enough for stop lights or in a quick stops avoiding cars that stop short in traffic. That also puts excessive weight on the foot peg. I'm no ballerina when I ride.

I did not buy my P11 whole. There is some mix and match going on, and I had to replace the outer cover once. The hole for the top bolt did not line up with the hole in the inner case and I had to open it up. Not a source for the leak though. The outer case probably needs to go to a machinist and get surfaced, but the cases do pull together flat enough to work with a good heavy duty sealer because of the multitude of bolts that surround the case. I know I can minimize the leak to close to zero if I can work fast enough with the Right Stuff. The gaskets do not work worth a damn on my primary cases. No amount of sufficient tightening gets it done.

I tossed the highly regarded hylomar in the trash. I really don't like that product. But thanks for the advice.

I agree with Bodger and don't really care that much, regardless of how I sound. It's not hard to refill the primary. It takes about 2000 miles before it starts to get better check it low. I would prefer it go away on its own, but someday I'll have to do something about it.
Click to expand...
I've always had good results with Hylomar, but you need to follow a strict regime and no, it won't compensate for poor surfaces...
Was just quoting the theory behind the geometry of the footrest, but of course once that leaves the drawing board and enters the real world of wear and tear, damage, poor/incorrect assembly, substitute fasteners and of course, the big P11 bugbear: Vibration!.... then anything can happen :)
 
Last edited:
jerrykap said:
Another way to go would be to change out the primary chain to a much higher tensile strength x -ring or o-ring 428 chain and forget about keeping the primary chaincase topped up. But the build I'm doing now is for another friend/customer and he wants as close to new as possible.
Click to expand...
Tried that one.
Without oil, the chain will overheat in no time.
I found that the felt ring behind the clutch is the problem.
Not the gasket.
 
ludwig said:
Tried that one.
Without oil, the chain will overheat in no time.
I found that the felt ring behind the clutch is the problem.
Not the gasket.
Click to expand...

The Atlas primary leaks at the felt washer as well, and will drive one crazy thinking it is the gasket. I put a lip seal on the transmission shaft to finally shut down the drips.... see https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/the-last-leak.32993/

No reason why the hybrids would not fare as well.

Slick
 
jerrykap said:
Another way to go would be to change out the primary chain to a much higher tensile strength x -ring or o-ring 428 chain and forget about keeping the primary chaincase topped up. But the build I'm doing now is for another friend/customer and he wants as close to new as possible.
Click to expand...
I could not get a RK 428 o-ring chain to fit. I tried 2. They are too wide for how my inner primary is spaced away from the engine. I have not tried the chain man chains, but I can't see them being any better for my P11 unless I change the spacer width between the engine and inner primary.

That OEM Renold chain is tough enough for me. I run my primary relatively low on oil and occasionally oil the entire primary chain manually through the lower big plug hole. It takes a while with the plugs out and rotating the engine/chain with the kick start, but at least I know it gets oiled. Not pretty if run dry.

I ran with a felt washer and it did no good whatsoever. If I'm not mistaken it got destroyed fairly quickly. Might have been the wrong felt washer though. I just checked Andover and don't see a felt washer for the P11 primary on the desert sled page.

Anyway that P11 primary with the foot peg bolt through the center is another old bike design feature to enjoy for a lifetime.

BTW, for those handing out tips, the P11 foot peg setup is not like it is on an N15, or G15 that use a similar looking primary.
 
I’ve never used a gasket on my P11 primary’s, Loctite 515 gasket replacer has always done the job very well.

B
 
Jerry,
Any luck with the gasket replacer goo in a tube method after going for a ride?

I'll definitely be trying Right Stuff or similar next time I get in the primary. I'm starting to think ATF turned my clutch cush rubbers to mush, and I could use a new center on the clutch anyway, so I'm going to get to it and stop using ATF in the primary. The clutch friction plates seem to like ATF, but the rubber not so much. I ruined the rubbers in the clutch 40 years ago with ATF, but forgot. By the time I remembered, it was too late, and the damage was done. Most of my shifts are on the banging side now where they were like butter before I started using ATF again. Too bad the cush isn't in the rear wheel hub where it belongs. Boo hoo

I'm going for a ride and then taking the primary off after it cools down a little. I'll report back if I have any luck sealing up the P11 primary. I'm not holding my breath though. ;)
 
Schwany said:
Jerry,
Any luck with the gasket replacer goo in a tube method after going for a ride?

I'll definitely be trying Right Stuff or similar next time I get in the primary. I'm starting to think ATF turned my clutch cush rubbers to mush, and I could use a new center on the clutch anyway, so I'm going to get to it and stop using ATF in the primary. The clutch friction plates seem to like ATF, but the rubber not so much. I ruined the rubbers in the clutch 40 years ago with ATF, but forgot. By the time I remembered, it was too late, and the damage was done. Most of my shifts are on the banging side now where they were like butter before I started using ATF again. Too bad the cush isn't in the rear wheel hub where it belongs. Boo hoo

I'm going for a ride and then taking the primary off after it cools down a little. I'll report back if I have any luck sealing up the P11 primary. I'm not holding my breath though. ;)
Click to expand...
Turns out the clutch cush rubber was still good. The soft cush rubber of old could have been soft when I got the bike, and I blamed it on the ATF. Also possible that ATF was a different formula 40 years ago. Anyway, for anyone that wanted to say ATF won't melt the clutch cush rubber, you are correct.

I have not buttoned it up yet. I'm thinking about putting the old dimpled steels and almost new OEM style friction plates in with the Barnett springs to see what happens.
 
I chickened out on using the Permatex Right Stuff. I used the last Black and Green P11 primary gasket I got from Andover with no sealant on it. Without running and riding it, the fluid is staying in the primary providing me with delusional false hope.

I'm going to start it up tomorrow and do the real world test. I also put ATF in it again. I think ATF can find a way past the gasket. It probably turns the black coating on the gasket into soup with the heat and vibration. I used the gasket without goop, because I reinstalled what was basically a new old stock set of clutch steels and friction plates. I had run them for a couple hundred miles, but must have had a reason for replacing them. If I pull them again, it will be a lot easier with the gasket with no sealant.

I could be wrong about the AFT "not softening" the clutch cush rubbers. I think it would soften them if they were in it all the time. My old Haynes manual says Castrolite oil contamination inside the clutch center will soften the cush rubbers. Excessive oil in the primary could do it eventually.

I made some studs from the old original slotted primary screws I still had in the spares pile. I left the slot in them so I could easily remove them. I used them to hold the gasket up on the inner primary and slip the outer cover on without having to use any adhesive or grease to hold the gasket in place. I doubt that is news for anyone other than myself. I've been in that primary at least 10 times, and never used the stud gasket holding idea when reinstalling the outer cover. What a maroon.
 
Farts!!

Didn't have to start it, or ride it. Went out this morning to install the foot peg and rear brake link hardware. Bottom of cover had oil on it toward the front. No drops on the garage floor yet. Leak appears to be coming from the area where the primary is notched out for the side stand. The drain plug fiber gasket which is close to that section is not leaking, and nothing further back beyond the mid point on the bottom of the primary cover had oil on it.

Installation was clean, gasket was new, all the bolts were torqued to 40 inch pounds. Apparently there is a short section near or at that side stand notch on one of the covers that cannot be sealed with the gasket. Prior to putting it back together, I put a straight edge on the outer cover, but didn't see any light under it. Must be a problem on the surface of the inner cover that I did not check. Next time both the inner and outer covers are coming off and I'll build up the mounting surface at that location with epoxy and resurface it cave man style. Oh well, the leak is what I get for cutting corners.
 
Schwany said:
Jerry,
Any luck with the gasket replacer goo in a tube method after going for a ride?

I'll definitely be trying Right Stuff or similar next time I get in the primary. I'm starting to think ATF turned my clutch cush rubbers to mush, and I could use a new center on the clutch anyway, so I'm going to get to it and stop using ATF in the primary. The clutch friction plates seem to like ATF, but the rubber not so much. I ruined the rubbers in the clutch 40 years ago with ATF, but forgot. By the time I remembered, it was too late, and the damage was done. Most of my shifts are on the banging side now where they were like butter before I started using ATF again. Too bad the cush isn't in the rear wheel hub where it belongs. Boo hoo

I'm going for a ride and then taking the primary off after it cools down a little. I'll report back if I have any luck sealing up the P11 primary. I'm not holding my breath though. ;)
Click to expand...
Schwany, I got sidetracked by life so I'm still unsealed. I did get some proper grommets and gaskets from Walridge and will let you know how it turns out. For the first ride I may not use any sealant as I'm expecting to have to adjust the clutch springs again.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top