new person with sad problem
- Thread starter mjfriesen
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bill said:
Guess I'll have to show my ignorance Windy. Your comments about vacuum and pumps in a hydraulic circuit have me a little perplexed. My understanding of hydraulic principles is that oil does not compress and does not cavitate. How is it that a pump would lose it's prime with a feed line full of oil?
swooshdave said:mjfriesen said:progress:
I have a little more to clean off, but it is probably about 90% done. So far the journal feels extremely clean, no scoring or scratch, just some discoloring. I had to stop when the 1" foam brush i was using to apply acid disintegrated.
Thanks again Kommando and geo46er!
And yes, Windy - plenty of ignorance here!
You're going to have that bike back on the road before mine! :shock:
I think that is a safe bet!
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JAYMAC said:
After seeing the scoring I might still have a chance.
SteveMinning said:
Steve
you have a check valve between the pump and oil tank, the check valve stop's any oil from passing through it, the pump or anywhere after the check valve has a small leak that will allow air to enter the circuit and will it to lose its prime, and as it will not self prime you have an expensive failure. think about an old style hand shallow well pump where you kept a bucket of water to prime the pump and you will see it is the same principal verses a submerged well pump that has NO priming issues . any old time mechanic will remember having to pack external oil pumps with grease or Vaseline to pick up a prime as was on a slant six or 292 ford engine where the oil pump was not submerged in oil.
Aren't nearly *ALL* cars equipped with pumps living in the engine with the oil underneath in the sump :?: yet there is no dire warning of priming the pumps even after the car has been sitting for months on end without being started. Obviously putting a restriction in the feed line is not a good idea, especially if they are prone to failures, so I'd rather live with wet sumping than a seized engine.
Jean
Jean
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Jeandr said:
Moi aussi!! Wet sumping is not a big deal. Wet sumping is not a big deal. Wet sumping is not a big deal. How many more times does this need to be said? I guess this thread has turned from a crankshaft grinding thread to another anti-anti-wet sumping valve thread! I have made this point before and gotten my ass royally chewed by a member of this forum who makes part of his living selling these valves. I still do not understand why anyone would fit one of 'em given the risks. Drain the oil from the sump, pour into the tank and away you go. Alternatively, ride your Commando more often and forget about wet sumping.
Jeandr said:
jean
most all cars have the pump submerged in oil in the oil pan. a few older American cars had an external oil pump and if they sat for VERY long times or the pump was taken apart you had to pack it with Vaseline or a light grease to prime it. the FEW that have the pump out of the bottom of the sump and on the end of the crankshaft DO NOT PUT ANY RESTRICTION in the suction passage.
as for catching crap for bad mouthing these pieces of GARBAGE ENGINEERING I COULD CARE LESS and i know some think are a great thing and use them on all there rebuilds but NOT ME!!!!!!!!
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79x100 said:
Good point! Don't Vincents also have them? I wonder if it has more to do with how these bikes were used (ie. ridden more regularly) or if the design of the valves they used were inherently better in this application? Interesting questions to ponder but I still won't use one on my bikes!!
for the most part i agree with the "ride more" sentiment, but i was trying to fix an issue that was causing problems in hours, not days.
unless you completely fill the engine with oil, i cant imagine any problem with wet-sumping other than difficulty starting. That was the problem i used to have - ride to work and 8+ hours later there was enough oil in the sump that it would be a pain to start! Kicking, kicking, more kicking in the 95+ degree NC heat is no fun! The oil on the flywheel slows down the engine so that it can be very difficult spinning it fast enough with the kickstart to get it going. 15 minutes of kicking was usually enough to clear out enough oil to get it started. trust me - that gets really old!
i had the oil pump rebuilt with seals and the timing cover ball and spring mod - did not help. i pulled the timing side apart many times, tried everything i could think of to figure out why it was wet sumping. In stupid desperation i fitted an anti-wetsump valve. And it did cure the wet-sumping. It hasn't wet-sumped in 3+ years as it sits on my workbench!
now that i have hi-jacked my own thread, time to start something else!
unless you completely fill the engine with oil, i cant imagine any problem with wet-sumping other than difficulty starting. That was the problem i used to have - ride to work and 8+ hours later there was enough oil in the sump that it would be a pain to start! Kicking, kicking, more kicking in the 95+ degree NC heat is no fun! The oil on the flywheel slows down the engine so that it can be very difficult spinning it fast enough with the kickstart to get it going. 15 minutes of kicking was usually enough to clear out enough oil to get it started. trust me - that gets really old!
i had the oil pump rebuilt with seals and the timing cover ball and spring mod - did not help. i pulled the timing side apart many times, tried everything i could think of to figure out why it was wet sumping. In stupid desperation i fitted an anti-wetsump valve. And it did cure the wet-sumping. It hasn't wet-sumped in 3+ years as it sits on my workbench!
now that i have hi-jacked my own thread, time to start something else!
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swooshdave said:
Building up the journals by metal spraying and then machining back to standard is a common way to repair this sort of damage.
Example:
http://www.vintage-engine.net/page/metal_spraying
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Besides the endurance contest kicking in extreme wet sump case
above, [imagine it freezing temps after sitting weeks and battery chilled too]
> the real issue is to make sure there's still enough oil above the pump not
to run dry - 30 sec or so to put enough sump oil back above the pump.
There is supposed to be a risk of oil pool pressure waves over coming
the crank seals, and could see that in Combat with low rear breather
vent but didn't seem to happen in my Combats. I watch the pencil
thick solid stream-jet of oil in top of oil tank for 30-40 sec till
it starts to just be sputters of air-oil or nothing, to know
bottom flushed out. Work throttle with care trying this as
the jet can easy increase to leap outside all over.
Combats have two oil pumps and two return lines, clever.
hobot
above, [imagine it freezing temps after sitting weeks and battery chilled too]
> the real issue is to make sure there's still enough oil above the pump not
to run dry - 30 sec or so to put enough sump oil back above the pump.
There is supposed to be a risk of oil pool pressure waves over coming
the crank seals, and could see that in Combat with low rear breather
vent but didn't seem to happen in my Combats. I watch the pencil
thick solid stream-jet of oil in top of oil tank for 30-40 sec till
it starts to just be sputters of air-oil or nothing, to know
bottom flushed out. Work throttle with care trying this as
the jet can easy increase to leap outside all over.
Combats have two oil pumps and two return lines, clever.
hobot
rvich
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I have been reading this thread in hope my question would get answered without me being the one to swat the hornet's nest. It seems that anti-wetsumping valves is one of those topics that gets people hotter than a wetsumped bike kicker on a hot NC day!
What valve was installed on your bike? And how did you verify that this was the cause of the bearing failure? Has anybody ever burned up a bearing when they didn't have a valve installed? What caused those failures (if they ever occured)? Enquiring minds want to know.
Russ
What valve was installed on your bike? And how did you verify that this was the cause of the bearing failure? Has anybody ever burned up a bearing when they didn't have a valve installed? What caused those failures (if they ever occured)? Enquiring minds want to know.
Russ
rvich said:
I am not sure if it is appropriate to single out any particular valve by name - i think they are all a bad idea. It should be pretty obvious which valve I used in the pic below:
Here is what happened when i installed the valve:
1. installed valve in correct orientation on the feed line, per instructions.
2. I used clear hose, so that i could see the oil (or more importantly, lack of oil) immediately.
3. primed the hose, started the bike and let it run for a few minutes, making sure there were no bubbles or problems with the oil flow.
4. rode about 1.5 miles to gas station, and verified that oil was still flowing.
5. stopped bike, filled up with gas, then verified that oil flow resumed after restarting the bike.
6. felt very happy
7. rode approximately 2.5 miles, headed out of town for a nice fall (fail?) ride, when the engine shuddered twice, then locked up as i pulled in the clutch and came to a stop.
8. noticed there was oil behind the valve, but none in front, headed toward the engine.
9. called a friend with a truck to come haul my sorry butt (and my bike) back home.
10. felt very sad
Maybe if i had an oil pressure gauge, and was watching it instead of enjoying the ride i could have prevented the catastrophic failure, but who knows? I don't intend to ever find out.
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mjfriesen said:
That seems like really excessive wet sumping. I am not sure what the average is for Commandos but mine will put about a pint in the sump in about a month. If I ride my bike once every two weeks, no need to drain the sump prior to startup. I was going to suggest that there must be something seriously amiss with your oil pump but I see you have rebuilt it already. The oil must be getting by those gears somehow!!
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