New generation Norton head (theoretical)

SteveA said:

I think the basis of your opinion is that your understanding of current 'market value' is indeed in a Time Warp! As is your idea that these bikes are being built to sell immediately for profit.

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I never said anything regarding selling for profit because the head will add little overall....... What I am saying is to sell heads you need to attract buyers and 250 worldwide obviously says they were to expensive, its not rocket science so look forward to what the new US manufacturer will come up with as far as price and promotion.
That would matter little if it is a copy of the original externally or something from a clean slate (which the average punter may very well not want) with actual modern ports with no restraints.

If and when someone produces another head. It will be a disappointment if the valve heads are not moved away from each other to fit the combustion chamber as should have been done when Norton increased the bore from the 68mm 650cc. That's right - the valve layout was designed for a 68mm bore. If larger valves could be installed you would get an instant increase in mid range power. Its not that big a deal. Larger valves and pistons with wider valve pockets are already available. Set it up correctly internally and leave the exterior basically the same. Adding a little more material to allow tuners to widen the ports wouldn't hurt anything. It would still be a street head and an improved head would attract a lot more sales.

Time Warp said:

I never said anything regarding selling for profit because the head will add little overall....... What I am saying is to sell heads you need to attract buyers and 250 worldwide obviously says they were to expensive, its not rocket science so look forward to what the new US manufacturer will come up with as far as price and promotion.
That would matter little if it is a copy of the original externally or something from a clean slate (which the average punter may very well not want) with actual modern ports with no restraints.

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Doesn't really matter how good your marketing skills are if it costs you $1800 to make a head and you plan to sell at $1800 you ain't going to make a profit!

Of course it is all down to how you amortize your investment, big guys can do that, and they will make decisions based on finance more than personal enthusiasm, which is probably why it took so long for anyone to start on Commando heads. Look at some bikes and you can choose whose heads you buy.

But you are asking a small guy to take on a lot. He needs to make a return fairly quickly or he won't be there next year.

Really no point us all pitching for what we want in terms of price or performance. It is all down to those who choose to invest and take risk.

SteveA said:

Doesn't really matter how good your marketing skills are if it costs you $1800 to make a head and you plan to sell at $1800 you ain't going to make a profit!

Of course it is all down to how you amortize your investment, big guys can do that, and they will make decisions based on finance more than personal enthusiasm, which is probably why it took so long for anyone to start on Commando heads. Look at some bikes and you can choose whose heads you buy.

But you are asking a small guy to take on a lot. He needs to make a return fairly quickly or he won't be there next year.

Really no point us all pitching for what we want in terms of price or performance. It is all down to those who choose to invest and take risk.

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Yes in the end the guy has too eat too.

Many of the best engineers I have met over the years seem to live on almost nothing with their "mates" expecting jobs for very low hourly rates. It isn't fair or realistic in my opinion. I add at least $20 an hour to the rates charged by the best guy in Wellington.

Some things are worth doing simply because they are good things to do. Are you money-motivated or altruistic ? I think getting a Commando engine going better by improving it's design is worth doing, regardless of any profit which might accrue. Making an 8 valve head for a Commando would be something I would do with almost complete disregard for the cost, if I thought it would be a major improvement. Getting a proven prototype which has been subjected to value analysis is the main thing.

Madnorton said:

Yes, FA new owner was waiting for enough castings to put together a machine run of heads to make it viable, this as you can imagine would need to be planned in and around other work. The ideal time to have any changes to the head would be the casting and machining stage, both easy to do if the volume is enough, as various port cores could be made and used as needed, machining, another 10 at the end of a batch would help keep the overall numbers up and the changes needed machined on the last ten or so, so it could be possible to keep both track and road users happy.
As yet, we still wait to see what the new heads will cost, hopefully cheaper than what the last batch cost. Otherwise the boss may take my handcuffs off and let me progress what I started when we could not have the amount heads that we wanted from the old supplier. The reason I was handcuffed was to honour the existing supplier at the time, and when it was sold, to see if the volume to meet orders and the price would improve - we and all others are still waiting.

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I'm wondering, apart from the casting and machining stages, what other stages there are to accomplish this? Why don't you buy the British made heads from Les Emery? The tooling for the Fullauto Technologies heads is still at Harrops in Melbourne. Perhaps John can shed some light on where in the process he is. I would absolutely LOVE to see Joe take the handcuffs off Ashley, so that we can all see how badly he does it and list the extensive excuses as to why they failed to achieve a usable head.

Time Warp said:

2014 is a long time ago for 30 heads or so a year since.

I payed $4000 for my FA head locally with all KibbleWhite valve train components from JC.

I payed a little over $1000 in total for a mint RH1 head (US eBay) with full rework by Jim Comstock including KW valves,guides along with exhaust and stud thread inserts.

If you think 250 heads over that time span for the planet is good don't go into business.
No one is denying Ken FA did not offer something of use but if you can not return a profit (unless you are a charity / very wealthy) it will become a white elephant.
I have a mint RH10 sitting on the shelf and would be lucky to get $500/$600 for it locally..fwiw.. so it remains on the shelf with all the other mint RH1's.

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Making money was not my main goal, unlike a lot of others in the Norton game. I'm quite happy with what I achieved in the business.

Jsengs theoretical design improvements are well intentioned, interesting and appear to be well thought out as I would expect.
Resurrecting long dead and ultimately unproven, butt ugly 4 valve improvements as proof of what Fullauto should have done is again, interesting but irrelevant.
He is right to be satisfied with his achievements creating a superior, standard looking head even though I disagree with many of his comments on other matters.....

For the moment in time the Fullauto heads were available I,m glad he had the vision,and balls to produce this excellent piece for our Commandos, and don,t forget, he didnt just talk about it like many have done over the years, and still doing now it appears, but actually produced the goods.

I was fed up with endless problems with my initally very good RH4 head but as the miles mounted,
so did the frustrating niggles until a very elusive porosity problem got me on the phone to Classic Road and Race Motorcycles in Victoria and a low 200 serial arrived,saving around £350 on the AN price.
I was interested to see if I could improve it with larger inlets and DIY hotrod mods used on the RH4 using the Premiers and velocity stacks with K&N. This has proven to be very rewarding.

The cost was factored (along with 5 speed and Maxton suspension mods) into the current agreed insurance value of £10,000+ which I will receive if the bike is written off or stolen.
Where these $6000 Commandos come from I don,t know unless 70,s values are being quoted, some UK prices are rising toward £10,000+ even for stock "restored" bikes.

Runs perfectly using a mild Web#312 cam, standard 850 composite gasket and was torqued by feel to both sequences using stainless head bolts.
CNC chamber volumes were spot on at 51.6cc each for a static 8.5:1 on my +0.040 engine.
Clean forgot to retorque the head but a year and 10,000 miles later, no leaks, no problems, no worries on a bike ridden all year for much of this time.

I,m quite happy with the current, reliable, tune of the engine which redlines in all gears on standard 850 gearing and averages between 54 and 63mpg a tankful depending on use.
Not remotely interested in ultimate Commando h.p. with associated cost and diminishing returns, if I want a road going, air cooled speed fix, I wheel out out my much modified, stock looking FJ and go for it, the usual strong low to mid range grunt with much improved top end and only done 96,000 miles since I bought it in '88.

johnm said:

Yes in the end the guy has too eat too.

Many of the best engineers I have met over the years seem to live on almost nothing with their "mates" expecting jobs for very low hourly rates. It isn't fair or realistic in my opinion. I add at least $20 an hour to the rates charged by the best guy in Wellington.

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johnm
Who is that guy in Wellington. I'm in Auckland and will be looking for someone in the future to do my engine. Sorry to go off topic, you can PM me if you like

I have a FA head on my 850, it wasnt cheap but I had no problem with that. Keep in mind that it IS modified as the ex ports are reshaped.
As with the previous poster I m not in agreement with all that he says but hats off for taking on and seeing through the project. I say THANKS!
...and along the same line, same tip o the hat to Bruce at TTI for running up the five speed...add in Bob for his BNR clutch/belt.
All this stuff is jewelry really but Im glad I popped, for it was available.

dart6 said:

johnm
Who is that guy in Wellington. I'm in Auckland and will be looking for someone in the future to do my engine. Sorry to go off topic, you can PM me if you like

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Ill talk to him but he turned 65 recently and retired from full business. These days he does friends and former customers bikes only and still has too much work. He does a lot of Vincent work and older prewar stuff.

Bruce with the TTI gearboxes seems to have a lot of smarts. But I still think he was initially motivated by altruism instead of potential profits. I greatly respect Ken with the FA heads, that was quite an achievement. I would not have thought an Australian foundry would have that capability, these days. And to stick your neck out and actually make a Commando head and sell it, is excellent. It shows what CAN be done. I've worked in engineering factories for many long years as a scientist and I know the difficulties in making stuff.

KiwiNeill said:

Where these $6000 Commandos come from I don,t know unless 70,s values are being quoted, some UK prices are rising toward £10,000+ even for stock "restored" bikes.

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US$6000 bikes complete and running are quite common in the US. Sometimes they can be had for much less. Here are two from a quick search, both within day driving distance. I'll let you cry yourself to sleep tonight.

Broken links removed

So you can see that in the US it's a little tougher to stomach a third of the cost on the head in some cases. Now if I'm doing a full restore or a CNW bike the cost of the head is much lower in relationship to the overall costs.

I know a guy who imports from America. The retail price in Australia is about 3 times that.

swooshdave
No crying necessary, I,ll leave that to you, my Commando was bought as a runner in 2001 complete with functioning starter and I rode it home.
It was always the intention to rebuild a Mk3 Interstate in the way I had been planning for years before and thats the same configuration it is in today.

Was way below $6000 but I suppose US Commandos went for around $50 at that time and I,m sure the 2 bikes in your links will be perfect four season daily rides year in, year out that will do a long tour with only a quick oily rag wipe and a few bucks worth of servicing....

If a Fullauto head had been available then I would have seen the advantages over the RH4 and happily paid most of the bikes cost to buy one, it would have saved alot of timewasting stripdowns and repair work on the original and run much better.
I build and modify much of the bike myself as I do with other bikes and cars, the money saved by not paying others for expensive headwork,wiring and engine mods for instance go toward buying the pricey parts.

Only one of many hobbies but one that lets me travel widely and meet interesting people, I make my own choices how I go about it, the justification of costs and relative value seen from the eyes of others is of no interest to me.

Fullauto said:

Making money was not my main goal, unlike a lot of others in the Norton game. I'm quite happy with what I achieved in the business.

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Ken, that was not my point, what you achieved was commendable of course and you set the path for the new manufacturer, BUT they will need to produce the head for a competitive price to generate more sales and the majority of those sales will be in the US.

My point is passion is fine but return on investment fuels the passion by default (unless you are a charity) whether you like it or not, part and parcel of selling to the general public.
Little different if someone was working on Norton's for a living, the passion would drive it but it will not pay the power bill or rates.

My comment on return, ie value of a bike with any added accessories was more relating to attracting sales from people who might not buy a product due to the expense but that does not apply to everyone, otherwise I would not have around $20000 in my Mk2a let alone all the other bikes.
The reality is even as a 'tradie, my FA head cost less than a weeks wages at the time but still had to contemplate the cost because it was a lot of money.
My thoughts are the big picture, one item generates enough return to dream up others to reality, not pipe dreams.

Dreams are free, reality costs, even cylinder heads with new generation ports made from fairy dust.

swooshdave said:

US$6000 bikes complete and running are quite common in the US.

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My 1971 Fastback came from up your way and was a bit over $6000, maybe $8000 by the time it cleared the docks in Sydney.
UK prices are insanely high but the buyers paying that shoot themselves in the foot so it is not really a true indication of value, its just an indication of how much folk want something and if it was a free ride it would not be on some ancient British motorcycle, it would be on the latest Honduh.
I would be lucky to get £4000 for my 2211 mile TR5T here but it is a £7000 + bike in the UK.

SteveA said:

Doesn't really matter how good your marketing skills are if it costs you $1800 to make a head and you plan to sell at $1800 you ain't going to make a profit!

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Maybe to US$2200 but that is with return/profit, not cost and a very good reason most things are made in China.
I want to see things flourish not fade away...Remember I have a FA head new in the box so it is a moot point unless I was looking to sell it which I am not)

We will see when they (heads) come back on line, and that applies to any product to the benefit of the Commando community.

Time Warp said:

Maybe to US$2200 but that is with return/profit, not cost and a very good reason most things are made in China.
I want to see things flourish not fade away...Remember I have a FA head new in the box so it is a moot point unless I was looking to sell it which I am not)

We will see when they (heads) come back on line, and that applies to any product to the benefit of the Commando community.

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I have a Fullauto head that has paid for itself since 2014. In my mind it 'owes' me nothing, but I feel pretty much the same about all of my bikes.

The economics were helped by Mick Hemmings selling the heads at a price that I would think included little by way of profit. I paid less for it than I had calulated to buy a (second) RH4 (or hopefully an RH10, which some people have and others can't find!) and to get that refurbed and race modified.

The main issue with having an original repaired was that at the time Steve Maney was taking 12 months plus to turn heads around at a cost of over £1000!

I wasn't impressed with the first RH4 I bought and the only useful thing I got from it was the rocker arms. It is laying in the Fullauto box and still has the old oil stains on it!

But you have to remember that I was not rebuilding an existing motor, I was building from scratch for a race bike. If you have a recoverable head and plan road use, of course it would be different.

I guess you bought the Fullauto to use at some point!

I was interested in the comment that somebody bought a FA head then enlarged the inlet ports in an attempt to get more power. I did that sort of thing when I was a kid, but learned better.