New Conical valve springs

The secret is out.

I am nearly ready to conclude the testing I have been doing on conical valve springs.

I have been running a set in my injected bike for the last year ,around 10,000 miles and I have been doing several tests on the spintron the past week. So far they have lived up to my expectations. I still need to do some spintron tests with some common performance cams to make sure they don't run into trouble.

If all goes well I will be making them available starting next week.

They will be a drop in with no machining necessary.
They have a custom Ti retainer that correctly fits the odd taper of the Norton collets.
They will come in two rates -one for street use and one for high rpm race motors.

I have 7 sets of the street springs in stock -of which one set is spoken for.
I have one set of race springs that are going in a motor I am building.
Beyond that I will be waiting for the next batch to be finished. Jim

Jim,

Advantage over stock springs is easy to imagine.

Any advantage over beehive springs already on the market?

Fast Eddie said:

Jim,

Advantage over stock springs is easy to imagine.

Any advantage over beehive springs already on the market?

Click to expand...

Yes

They will be a drop in with no machining necessary.
They have a custom Ti retainer that correctly fits the odd taper of the Norton collets.
They will come in two rates -one for street use and one for high rpm race motors.

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engine ... the-coils/

comnoz said:

Fast Eddie said:

Jim,

Advantage over stock springs is easy to imagine.

Any advantage over beehive springs already on the market?

Click to expand...

Yes

They will be a drop in with no machining necessary.
They have a custom Ti retainer that correctly fits the odd taper of the Norton collets.
They will come in two rates -one for street use and one for high rpm race motors.

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engine ... the-coils/

Click to expand...

Ok, Jim, other than being a "drop in, no machining needed, 2 rate" type of situation, what about the actual functioning characteristics compared to the "beehive"?

What will the pricing be on these?

bwolfie said:

What will the pricing be on these?

Click to expand...

The pricing is not firm yet. I am waiting for the next larger batch to be finished. I am working on some volume pricing. They estimated 2 to 3 weeks.
The initial sets are now gone. Jim

pete.v said:

comnoz said:

Fast Eddie said:

Jim,

Advantage over stock springs is easy to imagine.

Any advantage over beehive springs already on the market?

Click to expand...

Yes

They will be a drop in with no machining necessary.
They have a custom Ti retainer that correctly fits the odd taper of the Norton collets.
They will come in two rates -one for street use and one for high rpm race motors.

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engine ... the-coils/

Click to expand...

Ok, Jim, other than being a "drop in, no machining needed, 2 rate" type of situation, what about the actual functioning characteristics compared to the "beehive"?

Click to expand...

Better ability to avoid resonant vibrations that cause seat and valve stress.
I am still testing. Jim

Any sense of feeling or more objective data for what rpm level the street vs race upgrade springs would be worth while?

Thanks for the super chevy link regarding the competition cams conical spring developement article Jim. Great info there

The Chevy springs are about $18 each. I'd expect custom Norton ones to be much higher. Plus the retainers and keepers. Still sounds like a good deal. Have you dyno'd the difference? They suggested as much as 50hp with a SBC from the springs alone.

It would be nice if the springs would give a Norton an extra 50hp. :mrgreen:

swooshdave said:

The Chevy springs are about $18 each. I'd expect custom Norton ones to be much higher. Plus the retainers and keepers. Still sounds like a good deal. Have you dyno'd the difference? They suggested as much as 50hp with a SBC from the springs alone.

It would be nice if the springs would give a Norton an extra 50hp. :mrgreen:

Click to expand...

I have not done a back to back dyno run with just the spring change.
No doubt that if the valves seat and seal at the right time there is going to be some power gain. Jim

Fascinating stuff, Jim. I started using S&W springs back in the '70s, and after they went out of business switched to RD springs, a company started by one of the principals of S&W. I've used them ever since, and found them to work really well with some serious race cams up to 7500 rpm. For really killer cams, like the N480, RD recommended some springs developed for NASCAR that will fit the Norton. They are more expensive, and they told me that was because they are a super high purity steel. I haven't used them yet, because I haven't had the need to go much above 7500 rpm, but I supplied some of them to Steve Maney, and he had good luck with them. As much as I like RD springs, the current generation of short and ultra short stroke Nortons probably needs something beyond their standard springs, particularly with the cam profiles some of you guys are using in those engines. Looking forward to seeing the spintron results with lumpier cams. Every time I think we've reached the limits of our outdated engines, somebody kicks it up another step. It's a good time to be a Norton gearhead.

Ken

lcrken said:

Fascinating stuff, Jim. I started using S&W springs back in the '70s, and after they went out of business switched to RD springs, a company started by one of the principals of S&W. I've used them ever since, and found them to work really well with some serious race cams up to 7500 rpm. For really killer cams, like the N480, RD recommended some springs developed for NASCAR that will fit the Norton. They are more expensive, and they told me that was because they are a super high purity steel. I haven't used them yet, because I haven't had the need to go much above 7500 rpm, but I supplied some of them to Steve Maney, and he had good luck with them. As much as I like RD springs, the current generation of short and ultra short stroke Nortons probably needs something beyond their standard springs, particularly with the cam profiles some of you guys are using in those engines. Looking forward to seeing the spintron results with lumpier cams. Every time I think we've reached the limits of our outdated engines, somebody kicks it up another step. It's a good time to be a Norton gearhead.

Ken

Click to expand...

I still like RD stuff but they don't have some of the new, really neat stuff. That was all I used when I raced.

The S&W's [just a guess] that were on the head were probably 40 years old. They still gave good seat pressure but they are likely well past their prime.

I suspect the valve bounce was mostly because the heavy springs inertia and lack of open pressure was causing the valve to be out of the cams control until it crashed closed -after the closing ramps.

The 8000 rpm run I did made shiny marks on the sides of the valve heads from touching each other.

With the conical springs you can see the closing ramp slowly lowering the valve the last few thousandths to it's seat.

I may have to put in a PW3 or a 2S next. My selection of used cams is pretty thin at the moment. Webcam has all of them. Jim

Two papers on taper valve spring design for those who are interested, available as free downloads from
www.profblairandassociates.com/RET_Articles.html
First article was contained in Race Engine Technology magazine dated March 2009, the second article followed in the April issue
Incidentally, Comp Cams have the 4StHead software as one of their design tools

Jim,
Not meaning to sound ignorant,but I have no idea what a spintron is.Could you give a basic description of what it does ?
Thanks,
Mike

YING said:

Jim,
Not meaning to sound ignorant,but I have no idea what a spintron is.Could you give a basic description of what it does ?
Thanks,
Mike

Click to expand...

A spintron is just an engine that is driven by another motor. I use a 3 horse variable speed motor to drive a non-running engine up to high speed to look inside with a high speed camera and watch what is happening.

about-time-for-the-spintron-t21837-45.html

comnoz said:

Fast Eddie said:

Jim,
......
Any advantage over beehive springs already on the market?

Click to expand...

Yes

They will be a drop in with no machining necessary.
They have a custom Ti retainer that correctly fits the odd taper of the Norton collets.
They will come in two rates -one for street use and one for high rpm race motors.
........

Click to expand...

[See above where Fast Eddie asks if the conical springs have any advantages over the beehive springs.
Comstock says "yes", and describes the advantages above. This is misinformation, read below]

The JS Beehive spring and valve kits already on the market are already a drop in kit and require no machining because the valves come pre-machined to fit the retainers. Drop in components as described in photo below.



Currently I am making JS Beehive spring kits with retainers that fit the "odd taper of Norton collects" perfectly. I have sold them both ways - tighter on the top where the retainer is stronger with more material or precision reamed to match the Norton collets. I offer them either way at customers request - they work flawlessly with no valve float and have been tested in the 8000 to 8500 RPM range. See photo of precision reamer setup below.



The JS beehive kits come in two versions - one for street and one for racing with a thicker bottom washer and higher rate.

A longer spring works better because it doesn't change rate as much between max lift and closed and that means less valve bounce. And that is why the collets are located higher.

I tried Titanium retainers with a deeper recess that would fit stock valves but the collect were too difficult to remove. Deeper recess is on the right.



I have also been checking into the conical springs. They look promising if you can get them at the right rates open and closed. I like the Beehive springs because they have a progressive taper and use oval wire which gives them more strength with a shorter coil bind so they can fit into the Nortons space restrictions and closely match the open and closed rates of existing racing dual springs. Conical springs may or may not be the next hot shit depending on how they measure up, match existing rates, resist fatigue etc, and the cost.

Seriosly JS. You hijack a thread that talks about a product that Comstock is bringing to market, to promote your own parts !!

Bad form

If Jim was knocking your specific parts, it's one thing to respond, but to just come on here and talk about what you have available and pretty much make a sales pitch, is not cool.

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

www.coloradonortonworks.com

CNW said:

Seriosly JS. You hijack a thread that talks about a product that Comstock is bringing to market, to promote your own parts !!

Bad form

If Jim was knocking your specific parts, it's one thing to respond, but to just come on here and talk about what you have available and pretty much make a sales pitch, is not cool.

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

http://www.coloradonortonworks.com

Click to expand...

I think we're use to it now.

Plus he does make some interesting comparisons.

JS,
I have a set of your springs here.
If you would like I can review them and give them a spintron test and post the results here. Jim