MSD ignition

comnoz · Aug 2, 2013

MSD ignition

Here is an ignition system I have been testing for a while. So far I am impressed. Nothing fancy like multiple sparks but it is fully programmable. It also has two way communication with a PC so you can plug into it and see what it is doing. The timing is not affected by battery voltage and they will run down to around 8 volts with no problem.

I have some crank pickups made that will fit pre- MK3 .

And some brackets to fit the special CD coil.

I am not stocking the ignitions as they are a bit pricey like anything else from MSD but they are definitely a quality piece in keeping with the MSD tradition. I can supply them on a build to order basis. They would be programmed with two different curves and ready for installation.

I am still trying to find a way to fit a good pickup on a MK3. Jim

rvich · Aug 2, 2013

Hoo ah!

Kvinnhering · Aug 3, 2013

Do you provide you software to PC , so I can change the curve too?
Is it easy to connect yuor PC to the unit?
Is the sensor exactly at the start of the engine, no kick back?

comnoz · Aug 3, 2013

Kvinnhering said:
Do you provide you software to PC , so I can change the curve too?
Is it easy to connect yuor PC to the unit?
Is the sensor exactly at the start of the engine, no kick back?

Yes software comes with it.

It comes with a 9 pin serial to DIN cable for the PC. If your PC doesn't have a 9 pin serial connector an adapter must be used.

Starting spark is at 8 degrees and very consistent. I have not seen kickback as of yet. Jim

jeffdavison · Aug 3, 2013

Jim,

Will the crank pickup fit under the stock primary cover?

Are you offring it now?
I took a look at the PDF instructions for the unit. (for others) Will it work with a positive ground bike? Mine is negative ground so it's straight forward for me.
Also, if anyone goes to the MSDPOWERSPORTS.COM website, they can download instructions and the programing software.......

The 4217 and coil can be found in many places , but your pieces are unique.

and a set has my name on it

JD

comnoz · Aug 3, 2013

jeffdavison said:
Jim,

Will the crank pickup fit under the stock primary cover?

Are you offring it now?
I took a look at the PDF instructions for the unit. (for others) Will it work with a positive ground bike? Mine is negative ground so it's straight forward for me.
Also, if anyone goes to the MSDPOWERSPORTS.COM website, they can download instructions and the programing software.......

The 4217 and coil can be found in many places , but your pieces are unique. and a set has my name on it

JD

You can request one now but the first few may be 4 to 6 weeks before delivery -until I get supplies lined up.

Yes it fits under the stock primary cove -[except on a MK3 850 -I'm still working on that one}.

It will work with positive or negative ground. Jim

lcrken · Aug 3, 2013

A nice adaptation, Jim.

I don't recall if the merits of wasted spark vs conventional ignition for Nortons has been discussed in detail here, so I'll bring it up by asking your opinion. You've done a lot of dyno comparisons over the years. Did you ever do any using conventional ignition compared to wasted spark? Axtell was of the opinion that with race cams the wasted spark ignition was a drawback, because he thought the spark on the intake cycle pre-heated the intake charge. He concluded this partly because he found that advancing the intake opening point didn't add the horsepower he thought it should when using a wasted spark system. He and Mike thought that was also a problem with the Rotax singles, and suggested that I fit a distributor to my Wood Rotax and do back-to-back dyno comparisons to see if there was a difference. I figured out a fairly simply system to do that, but never followed through. The Rotax worked so well as it was that I didn't have much motivation to look for more horsepower in an already fragile engine. Anyhow, you and I probably already discussed this years ago at the track, but time has erased it from my memory. Just curious about your views on it.

Ken

comnoz · Aug 3, 2013

lcrken said:
A nice adaptation, Jim.

I don't recall if the merits of wasted spark vs conventional ignition for Nortons has been discussed in detail here, so I'll bring it up by asking your opinion. You've done a lot of dyno comparisons over the years. Did you ever do any using conventional ignition compared to wasted spark? Axtell was of the opinion that with race cams the wasted spark ignition was a drawback, because he thought the spark on the intake cycle pre-heated the intake charge. He concluded this partly because he found that advancing the intake opening point didn't add the horsepower he thought it should when using a wasted spark system. He and Mike thought that was also a problem with the Rotax singles, and suggested that I fit a distributor to my Wood Rotax and do back-to-back dyno comparisons to see if there was a difference. I figured out a fairly simply system to do that, but never followed through. The Rotax worked so well as it was that I didn't have much motivation to look for more horsepower in an already fragile engine. Anyhow, you and I probably already discussed this years ago at the track, but time has erased it from my memory. Just curious about your views on it.

Ken

Ken,
I have done wasted spark and single spark on my EFI bike and seen no difference in that application - but with injection there would be little if any fuel available during the overlap period.
I have run both a wasted spark and a Lucas competition mag on my AHRMA racebike and seen no difference in power.
[Hunt mags are wasted spark].
That is about the extent of my testing. I suspect that under some circumstances there could be ignition of the charge on overlap which could present a problem, but if I have experienced it - I didn't know it. Jim

Hobot · Aug 3, 2013

ya know i tend to snoop around and also found dyno tests [mostly HD oriented but also vintage] showed no detectable differences so only thing that remains to test one or 2 sparks at once is claims the single sparker tend to run smoother, somehow. Electrically its a bit harder to jump spark from the flat instead of from a point so its said/reported about 15% less effective spark that jumps in reverse dual fire kits. This hobby could be never ending just sampling all the new items popping up here and there for a while at least.

comnoz · Aug 3, 2013

hobot said:
ya know i tend to snoop around and also found dyno tests [mostly HD oriented but also vintage] showed no detectable differences so only thing that remains to test one or 2 sparks at once is claims the single sparker tend to run smoother, somehow. Electrically its a bit harder to jump spark from the flat instead of from a point so its said/reported about 15% less effective spark that jumps in reverse dual fire kits. This hobby could be never ending just sampling all the new items popping up here and there for a while at least.

If your concerned you can always run plugs that are deigned for wasted spark ignitions. Double platinums have a second platinum electrode on the side electrode for that purpose. Regular platinums or Iridiums are a waste on a wasted spark ignition as you are only getting the benefit of the precious metal on one side. Jim

Hobot · Aug 3, 2013

Huh, very interesting revelation a plug made for the wasted reversed spark side, cool. I wonder if my monitoring methods would detect any smoother evener power combustion with this extra point emitter. If there is a market for them I'd tend to want to believe too. If that MSD could take the points for triggering I'd be interested to try it instead of rebuliding AAU's.

comnoz · Aug 3, 2013

hobot said:
Huh, very interesting revelation a plug made for the wasted reversed spark side, cool. I wonder if my monitoring methods would detect any smoother evener power combustion with this extra point emitter. If there is a market for them I'd tend to want to believe too. If that MSD could take the points for triggering I'd be interested to try it instead of rebuliding AAU's.

The MSD would trigger from points. Just run the white wire to the points and set it in the software. You would want to lock out the auto advance. Jim

Hobot · Aug 3, 2013

Oh cool, can't use it now but will keep in mind to retain the low volts quaint points mechanism instead of fancy pants crank trigger.

comnoz · Aug 3, 2013

hobot said:
Oh cool, can't use it now but will keep in mind to retain the low volts quaint points mechanism instead of fancy pants crank trigger.

After thinking about that for a bit I realized you would need to connect the two sets of points in series to get a trigger for both cylinders or use a cam with two lobes and one set of points. That would complicate things a bit. Jim

Or use two ignition boxes for single spark.

Hobot · Aug 3, 2013

Ugh yes each contact breaker would have to fire it so I'd have to strain brain to figure it out but worth it in the long run. That the point type voltage spike or conductance could trigger the MSD box is main thing I was uncertain of. Prolly could just slip off the AAU springs and it'd stay in full adv so stable to dial in the MSD.

comnoz · Aug 3, 2013

hobot said:
Ugh yes each contact breaker would have to fire it so I'd have to strain brain to figure it out but worth it in the long run. That the point type voltage spike or conductance could trigger the MSD box is main thing I was uncertain of. Prolly could just slip off the AAU springs and it'd stay in full adv so stable to dial in the MSD.

You would have to insulate the points plate from the engine. A piece of film and a couple insulating washers would do it. Then run one points wire to ground and the other points wire to the white wire. Jim

Hobot · Aug 3, 2013

No fair telling me how to do it right off, where's my learning curve balls in that to beat my sense of self worth into fired oil. I've saved those little details though for future so I don't fry oil when I getaroundtoit. Business must be slow with you going thru you engine an traveling and reveal new inventions and this new sparker option. Get back to something useful eh. If the powerarch can take Peels cam end wobble then points and this MSD may be my next option. i know better than ask how much cause wife might glance at screen... again.

lcrken · Aug 4, 2013

This discussion reminded me of a system I used for a while before switching to the ARD mags. On my Commando PR, when I was still using points driven off the cam, I used an electronic ignition amplifier from Accel that had two separate channels, one triggered by each set of points. This was some years back, and it had no electronic advance or digital control, just your basic transistor amplifier. I was using it with an Alloy-Tech points plate, which had a ball bearing for the points cam and used Bendix points, driven by an Odham coupling from the cam. It was fixed advance, but was rock solid when you looked at it with a strobe light. I t hink I still have one of the Accel units stored somewhere, but the digital systems that are readily available now have way surpassed it. Still, it was pretty cool in its day.

Ken

comnoz · Aug 4, 2013

Yeah, I have pretty much found that if I want steady timing from a pickup on the cam I am going to have to do a bearing plate and insulate the rotor from the cam wiggles.
I had thought maybe a gear drive and a good pickup would do it, but that has not been the answer. Jim

Kool_Biker · Aug 5, 2013

comnoz said:
MSD ignition

I have some crank pickups made that will fit pre- MK3 .

Jim

This is brilliant and THE way to go as far as cam wobbles and other inaccuracies are concerned.
Now if you could make it fit the increasingly popular Alton conversions ...

Cheers, Aris

MSD ignition

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