Motorcycles, Myths and lies on Internet

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prmurat

Joined
Jun 6, 2003
Messages
492
At 55 (years old, not MPH!) I have been lucky enough to witness and live through the great motorcycle years of the 70’ and not too old to remember them… I was here when Internet started and could witness how a great invention was mainly used now to transmit tons of misinformation and lies. With 18 running bikes in the garage (+3 almost finished projects) I subscribe to a lot of motorcycle lists/forums and I am always amazed by the amount of “strange” remarks going on, worst than Wikipedia or a Republican blog!
My five best are:
“Vincents are better for touring than Godlwings or Beemers”
“Suzuki T500 is sturdier than a BMW”
“CBX is the new Vincent”
“Electra Glides can follow a 916 in twisties”
“Did 300000 miles on my T120R without opening the engine”

The best one so far is in this, great, forum relating how a stock Commando is faster and so much better than a Kawasaki H2… this has to be the top! Everything goes from the nephew of the school’s principal who had one to the “I never rode one but a similar model” etc. I do not think than a -72 Commando can accelerate faster, brake better ( optional double disks on the H2 and no need to rebore, dechrome etc), road handling takes about the same “tweaking” on both bikes to be acceptable (mainly shocks and balance/tighten spokes/wheels on the H2)…
I attached some race results of some stock race championships in the “good old days” in France: there is no trace of a Commando anywhere, if I remember well there was a guy competing in road race hill climbing with very good results till someone imported a Yankee 500 and starts winning everything.
I am sure than a 920 Commando with “special everything” can beat nowadays a regular H2… there are still H2R/H1R for the revenge!!!
I love my Commando to bits and will never part with it (especially after all the money I am pouring in it!!) but I am not ready to be a zealot for her: there is already enough religions in the world !!!!

http://racingmemo.free.fr/M%20FRANCE/MO ... 201973.htm

CRITERIUM DES SPORT 1973

500cc : Alain Vial (Kawasaki)
750cc : Gilles Husson (Kawasaki)
COUPES DES QUATRE SAISONS 1973


500cc : Frédéric Armarolli (Kawasaki)
750cc : Gilles Husson (Kawasaki)
CRITERIUM DES SPORT 1974

500cc : Bernard Sailler (Kawasaki)
750cc : Gilbert Lavelle (Kawasaki)
COUPES DES QUATRE SAISONS 1974


500cc : Bernard Sailler (Kawasaki)
750cc : Dominique Pernet (Kawasaki)
CRITERIUM DES SPORT 1975


Critérium 750cc : Jacques Agopian (Kawasaki)
COUPES PROMOSPORT 1975


Promosports 500cc : Christian Sarron (Kawasaki)
Promosports 750cc : Jacques Agopian (Kawasaki)


Philippe
 
Was it a local or regional event or an international one. Smaller events will cater to the low budget teams and they'll tend to pick the less expensive bike to race. Which is why you don't see the field heavily populated with MV Agustas...

For example:

1er avril 1973, Rouen, Circuit de Rouen-Les Essarts (5,542 km)
Circuit International de Rouen

Formule libre, 1ère manche :

1. Ron Chandler (GB, Triumph), 2. Tony Jefferies (GB, Triumph), 3. Christian Léon (Kawasaki)...
Formule libre, 2ème manche :

1. Tony Jefferies (GB, Triumph), 2. Ron Chandler, (GB, Triumph) 3. Eric Offenstadt (Kawasaki)...
Classement final Formule libre :

1. Ron Chandler (GB, Triumph), 2. Tony Jefferies (GB, Triumph), 3. Christian Léon (Kawasaki)...
Click to expand...


Only a head-to-head comparison of the stock bikes is valid. And unfortunately the most well known is the Cycle Magazine article. And that's what gets the Kawi owners so pissed. :mrgreen:
 
I only took the yearly results (around 10 races) which were for national championships. These races were open to stock bikes with only handlebars, tires and rear shocks changes allowed, engines were supposed to be completely stock (even with a lot of transfer polishing etc!)... I learned from this list that articles in magazine should never be trusted... glad to see there are exceptions :roll: :roll: (as an old journalist/photographer for Moto-Revue in a previous life...).
Philippe
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but in a French national series that the likelihood of someone racing a British bike, even if it was twice as fast as any other bike, is low. :mrgreen:

Motorcycles, Myths and lies on Internet
 
philippe,thanks for putting me at the very top of your obviously made up myths list,your list of kawasaki race results is impressive,but i thought we were talking straight out of the box production bikes"my bad"a 72 combat would blitz an h2 everywhere,except the quarter mile,then it would lag behind by a massive .5 seconds.now if we ad a few corners into the equation things change dramatically that .5 second dissadvantage is gone"im not even going to mention the PR that also came out the box" i dont want to rub it in too much,kawasaki couldnt afford to homologate a PR THEY WOULD HAVE TO BUILT A COMPLETLY NEW BIKE,maybe you could post a link to production races either national or international that shows us that an h2 beat anything"not just a norton' MCN machine of the year 5 times on the trot ,H2?????????????????
 
There is no question the H1 and H2 Kawasakis were fast, many motorcycle magazines proved it time and time again. Kawasaki put a lot of money into racing to the point of having their own "production" racers which were out and out racers having only the engine in common with a production bike. Norton did not have such an agressive promotion of their bikes yet they did pretty good considering the power a Norton could make compared to a Kawasaki.

As far as I am concerned, it was all over when the Suzuki GS750 and the Z1 came on the scene, those two could be hopped up to the hilt and not blow up. Sure there was the odd kook who could make an obscure motorcycle win for a while (witness T.C. Christenson who ruled the dragstrips with... Nortons), but eventually, the big DOHC fours would win in the end.

Jean
 
'73 Cycle world shoot out.
Up next was the 750 Norton Commando. Its ancestor had out-ET’d the field back in 1970 with a pass at 12.69 and had finished behind only the Kawasaki 500 and the Trident in terminal speed. It had been specially setup for the quarter-mile by Harold Allison; it was legal, but just barely.

This year’s Commando, while it had been beautifully prepared by Bob Yacenda and Brian Slark, was stock, right down to its gearing and tires. And while it was stronger on the top end the alterations to its engine (effected to help keep it quiet) have hurt its E.T. The Norton’s very first run produced its fastest speed: 104.77. Its quickest ET, 12.896, came on its second pass. Eight subsequent runs produced only one ET in the twelves, and terminal speed stayed in the 101-102 mph range.

This Roadster, like three others, Cycle has tested, had a very peculiar characteristic: when engine temperature rose past the nor-mal highway operating range, the bike would pick up a surging condition that penalized it in the higher gears. Even so the 750 gave a superb account of itself. It was easy to ride, wheelspin was controllable, and shifting was as light and accurate as it had been during the 1970 comparison. Like the Sportster, it has a four-speed transmission. Another gear would have helped.
Up next was the 750 Norton Commando. Its ancestor had out-ET’d the field back in 1970 with a pass at 12.69 and had finished behind only the Kawasaki 500 and the Trident in terminal speed. It had been specially setup for the quarter-mile by Harold Allison; it was legal, but just barely.

This year’s Commando, while it had been beautifully prepared by Bob Yacenda and Brian Slark, was stock, right down to its gearing and tires. And while it was stronger on the top end the alterations to its engine (effected to help keep it quiet) have hurt its E.T. The Norton’s very first run produced its fastest speed: 104.77. Its quickest ET, 12.896, came on its second pass. Eight subsequent runs produced only one ET in the twelves, and terminal speed stayed in the 101-102 mph range.

This Roadster, like three others, Cycle has tested, had a very peculiar characteristic: when engine temperature rose past the nor-mal highway operating range, the bike would pick up a surging condition that penalized it in the higher gears. Even so the 750 gave a superb account of itself. It was easy to ride, wheelspin was controllable, and shifting was as light and accurate as it had been during the 1970 comparison. Like the Sportster, it has a four-speed transmission. Another gear would have helped.
Click to expand...

http://www.normanwhite.co.uk/profile.htm
n February 1973, Norton Villiers chairman Dennis Poore sent him to the USA to prove to the disbelieving American importers that his published elapsed time to cover a standing quarter mile in 12.6 seconds on a standard 750 Commando was true. In front of a large entourage of Press, Norton officials, and world class drag racers he achieved a standing start quarter mile in 12.24 seconds, at the Orange County raceway. As far as we know, this time has never been equaled on a stock Commando.
Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_triple
H-1 was unique for using a CDI ignition which operated through an automotive style distributor. The H-1 offered a high power to weight ratio for the time, but had generally poor handling and weak drum brakes front and rear. It was the quickest production motorcycle at the time. When motorcycle journalists expressed some disbelief, Kawasaki suggested they take a new H-1 to the drag strip. Using a regular production model with only 7 miles on it, Tony Nicosia ran the quarter mile in 12.96 seconds at 100.7 mph for the press to witness (the official figure was 12.4 secs by Mike Wenzel - quite believable on a well run in machine). Tony Nicosia set many world records with Kawasaki triples over the following years, including some land speed records at Bonneville Salt Flats.

In 1972, the 750 Mach IV was introduced and was essentially a scaled-up version of the H1 500.[2] Updated with more power and better front disc brakes, the 750 became the undisputed king of the streets, even beating legendary muscles cars of the era such as the Dodge Hemi Cuda. However, dangerous handling characteristics imparted by its mediocre frame design caused it to be nicknamed the "Widowmaker" by motorcycle enthusiasts of the 1970's.

The ability to cheaply modify the engines for higher performance by porting the cylinders, milling the cylinder heads, and installing expansion chamber exhausts maintained their popularity for some time in drag racing. A 750 H-2 still holds the record for the fastest nitrous injected 750 cc motorcycle, with a standing quarter-mile of 7.776 seconds at 170 mph by Brian Pretzel of Redline Motorsports and the fastest normally aspirated 750cc motorcycle with a standing quarter-mile of 8.24 at 153 mph held by Joe Bird of Fremont Nebraska (the standard bike was quoted at 12.0 secs for the quarter mile which is not much faster than the smaller 500 but it had a better spread of power).
Click to expand...

hobot
My P!! would walk away from H2's, fella I got her from had a new one.
Alas I could not follow them in road racing d/t their superior lean handling.
 
Actually yes a few years ago there was a dragster being run out here in the twisties with a honest to gosh full length wheel bar on it. I got to ride it but found it a misfiring dog until rev's built then not the pull my P!! had on even Ms Peel.
It could handle turns pretty well but would straddle dips in road to leave drive wheel free spinning for instants while it pogo'd.
Motorcycles, Myths and lies on Internet
 
Not to play the devils advocate for whoever said "Electoglides can follow a 916 through the twisties" but I'm bored at work so I'll throw in this story. A couple months ago a friend & I were riding in the mountains of Big Bear Ca. I on my Commando & he on a Ducati S4 monster. Not a 916 but he's a very skilled rider & it is a very fast bike. The road coming down the mountain is full of long fast sweeping turns, a few miles of tight stuff and one very long straight section. My friend who has had some years of road race experiance & is a much more skilled rider than I hit about 145 mph on the straight & was gone from my sight as I was only doing about 85. In the first turn after the long straight I looked back & saw no other cars/bikes behind us & into the twisty stuff I went. About 30 seconds later in a tight left turn I got passed by A guy with a passenger on a full dress Harley. Bags, trunk, full fairing, everything including the kitchen sink AND a passenger!! He passed me in full lean like I was standing still & I watched as he flew down the road like V. Rossi on a Moto GP bike, cought & passed my friend and must have been on the freeway by the time I got to the bottom. If I had not seen how fast this guy road that bike I would not have believed it was possible. He had to be incredably skilled or just plain full ass crazy...
 
About 30 seconds later in a tight left turn I got passed by A guy with a passenger on a full dress Harley. Bags, trunk, full fairing, everything including the kitchen sink AND a passenger!! He passed me in full lean like I was standing still & I watched as he flew down the road like V. Rossi on a Moto GP bike, cought & passed my friend and must have been on the freeway by the time I got to the bottom. If I had not seen how fast this guy road that bike I would not have believed it was possible. He had to be incredably skilled or just plain full ass crazy...
Click to expand...

Yes sir Gtsun, I know what good riders on good HD's can do and its scary fast yet them seem so at ease tractoring around like mad. Its plain example that mass does not have that much distraction if any from hanging turns, just braking and acceleration benefit. Ozarks have the local wild cats, the visiting ones and the color jacketed gang members, all would give a racer a heart attack to keep up or pass. The over 100 cid engine kind can leave most Commandos in the dust especially over the ton. They have left me on SV650 peddling gears like crazy behind like I was in old VW beetle. Only on Peel in her prime could I run with them or pass, which is scary weird as these HD tend to be attracted to the center line up to 100 then into the oncoming lane above the ton.

The best handling report I've ever gotten was 70 yr old telling me about his '40's HD with a single wheel trailer drifting sideway past amazed-pissed off sport squids that bad mouthed his ride before taking off in twistes to next town. He said he laid hands in lap to rub it in as slide past them and left them behind till they caught up in town with new respect of pecking order. Guess what I've planned as cargo wheel bar device on Ms Peel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDS4FfzXRzE&feature=fvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nrMQ3Qw ... 1&index=54
 
Funny memory with that internet thought in mind...
Back in '77, I was an undergrad (fine art) at NIU in DeKalb, IL. I had a sweetheart of a T120R, and lived in a house with several other students, a couple miles from campus.
One night a friend of a friend, "George", showed up with a suitcase looking thing, opened it up on the kitchen table, and plugged it into our phone jack. as we all gathered around orange code slowly displayed on a black screen as George worked the keyboard.
"One day soon, there's going to be an electronic network like this university one, all over the world" he said. "It will enable open communication, exchange of ideas and commerce, among all the citizens of the world. With that, there will be freedom from hunger and poverty, and a lasting world peace"
Though he failed to mention the decline of the printed page, and the plethora of online porno, I think his promise seems to have fallen a bit short. But hey, lets give it another 100 years or so.
 
DonOR said:
With that, there will be freedom from hunger and poverty, and a lasting world peace" Though he failed to mention the decline of the printed page, and the plethora of online porno, I think his promise seems to have fallen a bit short. But hey, lets give it another 100 years or so.
Click to expand...

So what are you saying, that we DON'T have worldwide peace, and we still have hunger and poverty?

I thought...

...never mind; at least we've fixed the global warming thing.
 
rocker1 said:
I once ran a Commando and a H1 at the same time.
I still have a Commando, I do not own a H1.
Click to expand...

so that would mean the H1 "went" faster then... :D
 
Used to race my combat vs. my friend's '73 H2 750 along the access road to the GE plant in Selkirk NY off 9W. It was over a 1/4 mile straight and flat. Acceleration from standing start was pretty much neck and neck every time all the way to redline 7000 rpm and 110 mph. He would always miss a gear and lose. Never beat me. This went on almost a whole summer and we never ran afoul of the law. Maybe we were a little wilder compared to now but the new Superblends held up well and are still in the bike.

He later bought a Kawi Z1 and it evolved -- ending up about twice as long as a normal bike with wheelie bars and 3 bottle nitrous injection. I did the nitrous valve switching circuit and rigged up a big red light that went on at redline when it was time to shift and switch bottles. This was before it became the thing to do. He did win races with it. Gee it was fun back then!
 
I had a slightly modified H1; decked heads, ported cylinders, gutted mufflers, Koni shocks, K-81 skins and it was faster in a straight line than anything I came up against. However, one day, I tried to keep up with an old man on a 650 Bonneville on a tight twisty road and put the wallowing Kaw in the ditch as he disappeared into the distance. The evil bastard had a hinge in the middle and more motor than chassis. Sure was fun to screw the throttle on and fell the front wheel lift effortlessly as the motor came on the pipe, though.
 

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