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Something would have to be seriously wrong before the charge into my bike’s battery got near to 10 A, never mind 20 A.

The cheap multimeters I see don’t range up to 20 A anyway.
If you switch on all the consumers and the engine is not runing then the current from the battery could reach more than 10 A,
the advantage of digital meters is that it shows both current directions (from and to the battery). During reving up the direction
will change towards the battery.
To be honest 10 A range is enough.
I have different meters, they show the same result, the meters are placed about 2 feet from the bike. I can even switch on a radio
not far away from the bike there is no interference.

If there is RF interference somethong is not poperly shielded.

Marcel
 
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If you switch on all the consumers and the engine is not runing then the current from the battery could reach more than 10
Ok so you’re measuring discharge, with no charge from the alternator?

What does that usefully demonstrate?
 
Ok so you’re measuring discharge, with no charge from the alternator?

What does that usefully demonstrate?
It shows the power demand of the consumers, each consumers can be checked individually, so I found a faulty Lucas Rita Ignition
or see that the Headlight Led needs only 1 A instead of 5 A for a H4. If the engine is reved up until the consummers are balanceed
( +- 0 A at the meter) there is a good picture how many revolutions the engine needs to fullfil the electric demand.
 
This is off of https://granttiller.com/choosing-a-new-alternator

I dont know what the watt load was, so maybe Grant might know so you can do the maths from 5 amps?

Edit: fixed link address

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Looking at this chart again then looking at the Lucas charts for the RM24 over RM21 brings up some questions.
The chart above is linear with RPM whereas the Lucas chart is not at all linear
Also this chart shows the RM24 reaching its full 14.5 amp output at 2800 rpm.
The Lucas Mistral chart has that happening much higher at 5000 rpm.
It's interesting that the Mistral chart does not show the RM24 vs the other high output option of the day, the RM23, rather against the old low power RM21 that had been superceded in 1975, for Nortons at least.

Perhaps they realized that a graph showing RM24 vs RM23 might not sell as many RM24 stator upgrades? :)
I plotted Dave Comeau's RM23 output test numbers on the graph. In this case, as the Mistral graph is @ 12 volts, I used Dave's wattage output divided by 12 for each rpm point. Dave got just under 200 watts at 4000 rpm from the RM23, so it outperformed it's rating by 10%or so.

Please feel free to correct or comment if you feel I'm looking at this wrong way round.

Glen

 
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Yes, the RM24 output is the best of the bunch at low speeds, just not anywhere near the low speed output increase indicated on the linear chart.
I'm not even sure that much of that low speed advantage in the RM24 curve amounts to anything with a Lithium battery. It would be more helpful with the lead acid batteries it was made for , since those are fully charged at 12.6 volts.
With Lithium, up until the RPMs are sufficient to obtain 13 volts loaded, no charging is taking place. With a 1 ohm resistor as load ( standard test) Dave's RM 23 hit 13 volts at 3400 rpm. The RM24 should hit it a bit earlier, which is helpful. Lighter loads also helpful, of course.

Glen
 
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It shows both. As TT said, it shows if the battery is being charged or discharged, which is an indicator of the charging system. It also shows the health of the battery. A battery that will not accept a charge because of sulfited plates will show low or no current at speed, and a battery with a shorted cell will show excessive current. Since the battery is the most failure prone component in the the electrical system, an ammeter is the best indicator of what's going on. But ammeters are expensive to install (big wires) so they were replaced in OEM applications with voltmeters or silly WLA's. Fortunately for us with systems that rely on the battery at idle, a voltmeter is just as useful and easier to deal with.
All agreed, but also, with a good battery and the headlight ammeter, if it is left of center, you are discharging the battery. At center, you are fully charged and at the cutoff voltage of whatever regulator you have (including Zener). If right of center, you are not fully changed and are charging. With a good ammeter it's basically the same but you can usually accurately measure the current in or out.

The original headlight ammeter was half decent (not great), the current ones have no damping so are barely usable. Some of them tend to fall apart in operation - really bad since one side it directly connected ot the battery. Also, since they are really a voltmeter that reads the voltage drop across an internal coil of wire and are crudely made, there's no point of discussing actual readings and where I say center, I mean whatever is center when fully charged and at riding RPMs.
 
The low internal resistance and higher operating voltage of a lithium battery definitely changes the voltage numbers that you are used to seeing during operation.

With the Alton alternator, I can make about 13.6 volts at 2000-2500 rpm while the battery is recovering from the starting draw. Within 2-3 minutes of riding a moderate speed, the battery has recovered and sits at 14.3-14.4 volts with typical cruising electrical loads. With the lights off, the Zener does a full trim at about 14.6-14.7 volts - still within Shoria's recommended range.

Dropping back to idle, I see about 13.8 volts. Sitting at a traffic light, it may drop to 13.5 volts before resuming my ride. Recovery to full charge is pretty much immediate.

FWIW
 
Here's another little electrical tidbit- This was early days for alternator charging systems on motorcycles, late 50s before the Zener Diode came along. One pair of stator coils was shorted when in the " Lights off" position.
This was a crude form of voltage regulation, maybe enough to keep the battery from boiling. Power output was quite low, about 100 watts at max.
So Bob Kizer ( Podtronics inventor) was not the first to short the stator for regulation.

From the Lucas Service Notes.

Glen
 
Two pairs were shorted in the 6 V system.
Probably doesn't matter to anyone here but the 5-wire stator (Lucas 47188) used for ET ignitions had four coils in series with a center tap (3 wires). The overall pair was for ignition and the center tap was for the stop light. The other pair was two coils in series and were for the headlight and tail light. There was no rectification or regulation whatever on and of it. The ignition circuit had at least 6vac at idle. The headlight was barely lit at idle. If the headlight was off, the tail light was fine with the headlight on at night you had to be careful about people from behind! At highway speeds you could mostly see where you were going.

No pairs were shorted at any time.

I don't know if Norton ever used ET ignitions - Triumph and BSA did.
 
Oriental factories also used switched coils and systems like energy transfer, but they used good components.

People used to be driven nuts trying to start Tiger Cubs and T100As with ET.
 
Oriental factories also used switched coils and systems like energy transfer, but they used good components.

People used to be driven nuts trying to start Tiger Cubs and T100As with ET.
On singles, they were ok if you knew how to set them up, on twins - difficult. My 72 BSA B50MX (500cc single) started easily. My first Triumph was a 500 twin with ET. To spark one set of points had to be closed when the other set closed or there was no circuit. Unlike other ignitions, the coil fired when the points closed. This also meant that the rotor had to be timed so that the max voltage was produced as the firing points closed. Also, since it was an AC voltage ignition that fired on point closing, the condensers did little to protect the points from arching so cleaning points and re-gapping often was required.

To make things more fun, there were no timing marks so timing had to be done with a degree wheel at the points. Still have the degree wheel I made for the purpose. Slotted sides and a washer to keep the advance unit at full advance - always trying to remember that it turned at half engine speed. On most engines you'll get sparking no matter how far off the timing is. On ET you have to close or it does not spark at all.
 
A couple of points:

  • I think the mistral chart looks wrong - it shows the RM21 giving us 10 amps at 3.5k rpm, I think we are all painfully aware that it's nearer to 5.5k rpm.

  • A lot of the ET bikes used "Resistance Wire" (nothing more than a resistor in today's terms) so that the stator was never shorted, but was instead running at full load when the additional power was not required by the headlamp.
    Typically 6 volt bikes and no zener diode, with lamps running on AC. I had an old AJ that was setup like this (WIPAC I think?), and I ripped it all out when I swapped it over to 12 volts. It was a lot easier to start after.

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That’s not an Energy Transfer wiring diagram and the lights are not AC. I don’t think any road AJS used ET.
 
Here's the Lucas Service note info on shorting stator coils, early days AC on bikes, before the zeners became available.

 
I recorded the following from my bike, it shows the output from the alternator (RM21). The red line is the actual output, the truncation at +/- 10V is due to the limited range of the DATAQ data acquisition device. The blue line is a sine wave I've overlaid to provide some idea of what the full waveform might look like. Three output cycles take about 45 ms equivalent to 1350 crankshaft rpm. This sample shows the three wave forms seen throughout the 20 second or so recording. There are two "clean" waves flanked by one that is "stepped" on the negative half of the cycle and one stepped on the positive side. Mostly there are hundreds of cycles of the stepped type with scattered examples of the clean type.
The regulator/rectifier is a Boyer PowerBox and the battery is an Anti Gravity LifePo4. There's a volt/ammeter on the bike and while recording this data the system voltage was 13V and the battery was charging at about 0.5A (before starting the bike the battery voltage was 12.8V).
Does anyone familiar with the PowerBox know if this looks like normal operation?
I've been having problems with the charging system. The onboard volt/ammeter shows that it is working intermittently and battery voltage is reducing over time. I don't think this snapshot of the output has captured the intermittent problem, but it would be useful to know if these wave forms are normal or not.

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I’ve been working my way through the various regulator/rectifier threads looking for answers to my own charging system problems, but I quickly realized I didn’t have much of a clue as to how a rectifier works. Incomplete and contradictory explanations led me to look for greater detail and to investigate my own charging system with an oscilloscope.

Here’s what (I think) I’ve found, feel free to critique.

The fig below shows the output from the alternator & reg/rec although in this case the rectifier Edit: regulator isn’t doing anything. The rectified sine wave appears as a series of half sine wave pulses, the peak amplitude of which is 15V. Six pulses are produced for every revolution of the crankshaft (RM21 single phase alternator). The battery is at 12V. Current cannot flow to a higher voltage, so when the pulse is below 12V it contributes nothing to powering the electrical loads, the battery is doing all the work. When the pulse is above 12V the situation reverses, the alternator is now providing all the power to the electrical loads and there is a little bit extra to flow through the battery and restore some of its charge. As the pulse voltage reduces the battery takes over again. The pink shaded areas represent energy extracted from the battery and the blue shaded area energy extracted from the alternator. Energy flow switches back and forth between the battery and alternator 12 times for every revolution of the crankshaft. If the pink area is greater than the blue area above the 12V line, the battery is discharging (see note at end).

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In the next fig the rectifier has started to have an effect. At 15.5V it shorts the alternator causing an immediate drop in its output, well below 12V. The result is that the battery is having to do a lot more work. It’s not so much the limitation of the peak voltage, it’s the reduction in the duration of the time for which the alternator output is above 12V that hurts.

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When I saw the “clipped” wave form on the oscilloscope when my bike was running at <2k rpm I thought it odd that the rectifier would be doing it’s stuff at revs where the alternator might be struggling to keep up with demand. I showed the clipped waveform to the reg/rec manufacturer and they said it was normal and that turning on additional load would prevent the clipping at low revs. That was counter intuitive; the engine is at low revs, the alternator can’t keep up, the battery is discharging so I need to turn on the headlight!? Sure enough, turning on the headlight returns the reg/rec output to full half sine waves.

The explanation for this, I think, is that when the alternator output reaches the point where it exceeds the battery voltage it takes on the entire electrical load. With the headlight on the load is increased, the alternator must provide more current and more current comes at the price of lower voltage. The peak alternator reg/rec output no longer reaches the rectifier threshold so no clipping occurs.

This isn’t the cause of my charging system problems but, hopefully, having a better understanding of how the charging system works might help me pin it down in future. If I’m wrong about this let me know, it could avoid me chasing red herrings.

I’ve only investigated this at <2k rpm, I don’t know to what extent this happens at normal running engine speeds.

Note: I used a sine wave to represent the alternator output because I’ve seen it done that way elsewhere, but this is what the real output from my reg/rec looks like.

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A sine wave would never work because the blue area above the 12V line could never equal the pink area and so the battery would always discharge. The steep sided waveform is essential to minimize the time during which the battery is powering the loads.
 
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