Modern vs Classic

Voodooo

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In my time of pounder, I ran across this video I seen posted on Facebook today. Never before have I seen it posted on here but it appears to be Ian Wilson.
Awesome video Ian.

This brings up a question for me, if one were to race a modern Dominator vs a classic Dominator / Manx on the same track, same day, with the same professional rider at the controls, which bike would post the faster time?

If a Manx were raced against the 961 Domi, my gut tells me the Manx would most likely be the faster of the two?
Am I wrong?
The Manx has slightly less hp, but it’s also quite lighter in weight.

In a drag race though, my money would probably be on the 961?

What do you all think?

 
I had been wondering the same thing - but you have to be careful as you really don't want to upset the Norton Owners Club. They know people....

If we are talking about a well set-up 961 with carbon fibre wheels and modern tyres I do wonder. To start with what would be the top speed for a quick Manx? The aficionados will probably be asking which model Manx.
 
Clive said:
I had been wondering the same thing - but you have to be careful as you really don't want to upset the Norton Owners Club. They know people....

If we are talking about a well set-up 961 with carbon fibre wheels and modern tyres I do wonder. To start with what would be the top speed for a quick Manx? The aficionados will probably be asking which model Manx.
Click to expand...
acceleration graphs would be helpful!
 
The results would also depend a lot on which race circuit you choose. On a really tight circuit a Manx might well be the winner, but on a high speed circuit like Daytona the 961 would almost certainly be quicker.

Ken
 
The 961 brakes and adjustable Ohlins suspension. You guys actually ever been on a track and used your brakes? Is there really a question here? :confused:
 
Depends if you’re talking a 60 year old original Manx or a new one.

I can’t think of a circuit where a 961 of any description would beat a well built, proper race spec, fully faired, new Molnar Manx.
 
First thing you would have to do is figure out a way to get the 961 up to 140 mph to keep up on the straights.
Then you would have to find a way to make a 500 lb road bike handle like a 320 lb race bike.
It's a tall order.

Glen
 
italia said:
The 961 brakes and adjustable Ohlins suspension. You guys actually ever been on a track and used your brakes? Is there really a question here? :confused:
Click to expand...
Well, as a matter of fact, yes. I road raced for 20 years on a lot of different tracks, and on bikes both vintage and modern. And at a race I was in at the old Las Vegas track, which was extremely tight and narrow, I watched Don Vesco take his Manx out in a modern superbike race, just for kicks, and thrash them. And I have owned both a Norton Manx and still own a 961. My comment about who would come out the best on a tight track vs. a long track was based on my experience. Much as I love my 961, it's way heavy for the horsepower it has, and is very limited in ground clearance for serious cornering, so I don't think the suspension and braking will make up for the agility of the Manx on a tight track. But on a long track like Daytona, the extra horsepower will allow a higher top speed, which should be enough to let it come out ahead. Now I could be wrong, but at least I have experience and specific reasons for my opinion.

So, what's your qualifications and rationale for disagreeing so strongly?

Ken
 
Fast Eddie said:
Depends if you’re talking a 60 year old original Manx or a new one.

I can’t think of a circuit where a 961 of any description would beat a well built, proper race spec, fully faired, new Molnar Manx.
Click to expand...

Good point, but to be fair, if you are allowing a modern Molnar Manx, with 20% more horsepower than the originals, a 6-speed gearbox, modern cartridge damping conversions in the forks, and other updates, then maybe you should be comparing it to a 961 modified for serious road racing, with more horsepower, increased ground clearance, race fairing, and some weight reduction.

In any case, unless someone has the resources to dig out the lap times for both at the same tracks, we'll never really know. I do recall we had some AHRMA races here a few years back where John Snead (G81 Can Cycle) was racing his 961 at the same races as a number of Manxes, just in different classes. Might be some similar situations in UK or Europe. It would be interesting to compare lap times at both short, slow, and long, fast tracks. But it's beyond my resources to dig up that data.

Ken
 
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Ken, I appreciate your response and am not questioning your experience. Though considerable over the last 15 years, I've spent somewhat less time than you on tracks, but on the half dozen modern tracks I've been on, drum brakes (at least the ones I have experience with) would be a considerable hindrance TO ME, as most of MY overtaking of other bikes tends to be on the brakes.

Maybe I'm underestimating the ability of the Manx' TLS & SLS drum brakes to refrain from fading, and providing consistency in hard pre-corner entry braking, corner after corner, lap after lap, so take my comments with a grain of salt if you have experience with those specific brakes, and my assumptions are off base.

Sure, being much lighter is a HUGE advantage to the Manx.

Even with your adept point about lightness and agility though, I’d still probably take a 480 lb 80hp 961cc bike with Ohlins suspension and great brakes, over a 310 lb 54HP 498cc classic with drum brakes. YMMV, and godspeed to you for being faster on a classic.
 
lcrken said:
In any case, unless someone has the resources to dig out the lap times for both at the same tracks, we'll never really know. I do recall we had some AHRMA races here a few years back where John Snead (G81 Can Cycle) was racing his 961 at the same races as a number of Manxes, just in different classes. Might be some similar situations in UK or Europe. It would be interesting to compare lap times at both short, slow and long, fast tracks. But it's beyond my resources to dig up that data.

Ken
Click to expand...

Ken,
John was racing a modified 961 Commando.
Got his clock cleaned by Suzuki 650's on the straights.
But he was able to catch up braking for corners.
Would a 961 Dominator do better?
I would expect so, since the Domi has a monoshock, so it should have better high speed control.
Better stability while braking on corner entry too.
Chasing a Vintage Manx, probably the biggest problems in the tight stuff are, footpegs, and the alternator cover touching down.
The 961 is heavy, but the weight is low down, that will effect acceleration, but not handling so much.

This contest would be a great article for a magazine like Classic Bike.
Old Norton classic versus new Norton - who gets the bragging rights. :D

And then a stock 750/850 versus 961.
 
I read an article about a weekend long race mix between Manx Nortons and race tuned SV 650s.
I believe most of the Manxes were original bikes, some with elderly pilots.
The SVs are modified for racing, I guess similar to ones that John Snead struggled against.
The younger riders on the SVs thought it was a bit of a joke, not much chance these old farts on their relic Brit bikes could keep up with young hotshots on modern machinery.
Not only did they keep up, the Manx riders blew the SVs into the weeds.
I remember the great summation by the SV racer who wrote the article - " All we heard and saw all weekend were those bloody booming Manx megaphones!"

Glen
 
worntorn said:
First thing you would have to do is figure out a way to get the 961 up to 140 mph to keep up on the straights.
Then you would have to find a way to make a 500 lb road bike handle like a 320 lb race bike.
It's a tall order.

Glen
Click to expand...
Glen, can you recall what Steve Parish lapped the IOM at on a 961? That should settle the debate one way or t’other straight away !
 
BritTwit said:
Ken,
John was racing a modified 961 Commando.
Got his clock cleaned by Suzuki 650's on the straights.
But he was able to catch up braking for corners.
Would a 961 Dominator do better?
I would expect so, since the Domi has a monoshock, so it should have better high speed control.
Better stability while braking on corner entry too.
Chasing a Vintage Manx, probably the biggest problems in the tight stuff are, footpegs, and the alternator cover touching down.
The 961 is heavy, but the weight is low down, that will effect acceleration, but not handling so much.

This contest would be a great article for a magazine like Classic Bike.
Old Norton classic versus new Norton - who gets the bragging rights. :D

And then a stock 750/850 versus 961.
Click to expand...
It's out there somewhere (for a price :) ).......

Norton Commando: 850 Versus 961 - Motorcycle Classics

Clash of the Commandos: Classic Norton Commando 850 vs. a new Norton 961
www.motorcycleclassics.com
 
I weighed my 961, with some good weight saving (no cat, shorty pipes, Shoria battery) and it was still over 500lbs.

I never dyno’d mine, but recall reports of low 70s rwhp.

An original Manx is around 320lbs and 50 rwhp.

A modern top spec Manx is around 260lbs and 60 rwhp.

That gives BHP per lbs power to weight ratios of:

961: 0.14
Original Manx: 0.156
Modern Manx: 0.23

I would suggest that the better brakes and suspension of the 961 would make it a close race between it and an original Manx. The old Manx is still far more agile and quick steering though, so the Ohlins can only gain it so much here.

But the modern Manx is simply in a different league.
 
Fast Eddie said:
Glen, can you recall what Steve Parish lapped the IOM at on a 961? That should settle the debate one way or t’other straight away !
Click to expand...
It was in the high 80s mph.
He liked the bike but not as a racer.
So much so that when Triumph offered him a Thruxton R to run against 1990-2003 works racebikes at the IOM he wasn't thrilled.
Here we go again, another retro Cafe racer, boring!
He did well with the Thruxton though, 109 mph lap, no fairing. He was very animated after the lap. He beat some well known IOM racers who were on factory race bikes. They were quicker on the straights but he did very well cornering and accelerating out of those 200 and something corners.

Still, the fastest time ever on a modern Manx was Bruce Anstey on a Macintosh, 108.1 mph. Not much less considering the HP difference and so forth. But the Triumph is a lot heavier than the Manx and there are over 200 corners on the IOM. Also, Steve Parrish is 66 years old, still very fast, but not in his prime.

It would be interesting to see what Bruce Anstey would manage on the 3 bikes mentioned above.
Somehow, original Manxes have gone just about as fast as the Molnar Manxes (105?). I guess when you think about how many riders have tried the IOM on a Manx over the years, there are bound to be some exceptional results.
How do you out ride Geoff Duke, who, cornering at over 100 mph let his shoulder touch a stone building in exactly the same way every lap?
People wondered why there was a little puff of dust from the building every time he flew by. Someone managed to get a photo of the contact, but they could have just asked Geoff. He was fully aware of the light contact.



Glen
 
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I kind of remember someone around here only achieving 58 HP at the rear wheel on a dyno. That said, the shitty fueling we're all forgetting about vs. a superbly dialed in pair of carbs. Oh...and that weight. Brembos and Ohlins may help, but what makes it go counts too.
 
worntorn said:
It was in the high 80s mph.
He liked the bike but not as a racer.
So much so that when Triumph offered him a Thruxton R to run against 1990-2003 works racebikes at the IOM he wasn't thrilled.
Here we go again, another retro Cafe racer, boring!
He did well with the Thruxton though, 109 mph lap, no fairing. He was very animated after the lap. He beat some well known IOM racers who were on factory race bikes. They were quicker on the straights but he did very well cornering and accelerating out of those 200 and something corners.

Still, the fastest time ever on a modern Manx was Bruce Anstey on a Macintosh, 108.1 mph. Not much less considering the HP difference and so forth. But the Triumph is a lot heavier than the Manx and there are over 200 corners on the IOM. Also, Steve Parrish is 66 years old, still very fast, but not in his prime.

It would be interesting to see what Bruce Anstey would manage on the 3 bikes mentioned above.
Somehow, original Manxes have gone just about as fast as the Molnar Manxes (105?). I guess when you think about how many riders have tried the IOM on a Manx over the years, there are bound to be some exceptional results.
How do you out ride Geoff Duke, who, cornering at over 100 mph let his shoulder touch a stone building in exactly the same way every lap?
People wondered why there was a little puff of dust from the building every time he flew by. Someone managed to get a photo of the contact, but they could have just asked Geoff. He was fully aware of the light contact.



Glen
Click to expand...

Well I’d say that concluded matters. High 80s vs anywhere between 105-108 average around the IOM should surely answer the OPs question.
 
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