Mercury production

I got a PM asking me where I got my info on 1968 Commandos.

According to the reference 'What year is it' - I think from Roy Bacon's book, 1969 production is supposed to start at number 130000. In the 1968 calendar year, Norton built Atlases, Commandos, G15s, Mercurys, N15s, P11As and Ranger 750s. I can't say for certain, but I think there was no AJS 33 production in '68. Production was usually in batches, but occasionally a sequence of numbers would have gaps or a small sequence assigned to a different model. Unless you have access to the factory record, its hard to say with certainty exactly how many of a particular model were built, knowing only the first and last number of a batch.

I know, courtesy on Anthony Curzon, that the last P11A was number P11/126123
The first production Commando was 20M3/126125, and the last of the first production run was 20M3/128634. I don't know if every number in that series was assigned to the Commando

Ranger 750 production ran from P11/128646 to P11/129145 with 496 bikes being made according to Leo Goff, 495 according to Curzon. All Ranger 750 production was intended as 1969 model year, though my particular bike is titled as a 1968, dispatched from Plumstead on October 15, 1968

Mercury production ran from 18SS/129146 to 18SS/129896. They were dispatched between October 1968 and February, 1970. Out of that range of 750 numbers, about 700 were Mercurys, one last batch of Atlases, and a short run of Commandos. The Atlases were built to complete a few military/police orders, and Curzon posted he knows a Commando has the number 129779.

So, Mercurys were all built at the end of calendar year 1968 and sold as 1969 or 1970 models, and all fall between 129146 and 129896. Of the roughly 700 produced, about 100 stayed in the home market, the balance exported, mainly to the US and Canada. I've never seen one in person.

here's a spec sheet from the Mercury brochure:
http://www.nortonownersclub.org/noc...wins-forum/302073698/807094826/Mecury-650.jpg

I am Aware that a few were brought into New Zealand for use as police bikes.
Al

possm said:

I am Aware that a few were brought into New Zealand for use as police bikes.
Al

Click to expand...

Agree. One lives next door to a friend of mine in Wellington. In a few weeks I will be home and can check the number. In very original condition and owned by an engineer with a collection of pre and post war bikes all in unrestored but usable condition. A guy who leaves his bikes with their original patina and condition. No over restoring.

If a hazy recollection is correct, I think I`ve seen a Mercury in Air Force Police livery in an aircraft museum somewhere downunder too..

I had a Mercury for a few months in the spring of 1973 in Nigeria, West Africa--it was almost as quick as the '62 650SS I'd left behind in Africa three years earlier. I had a new Combat at home by then--with new Superblends--but the Mercury was the only heavy Norton twin I could find in the country


Tim Kraakevik
kraakevik@voyager.net
'72 Combat, '74 RH10 850

http://www.google.com/search?q=Mercury+ ... 33&bih=416

You'd wonder why they didn't do the tank in blue too....

BillT said:

I know, courtesy on Anthony Curzon, that the last P11A was number P11/126123
The first production Commando was 20M3/126125,

Click to expand...

Wonder what 126124 was then ??

"The missing link"?

Rohan said:

BillT said:

I know, courtesy on Anthony Curzon, that the last P11A was number P11/126123
The first production Commando was 20M3/126125,

Click to expand...

Wonder what 126124 was then ??

Click to expand...

From my experience transcribing some 1939 records, 126124 could be either a skipped number, or a single machine to finish an overdue order, like an Atlas or N15

Beginning Sept 6, 1939, Every Norton built was a 16H, 16HK, or 18, and all for either the War Department or RAF. Then, on Sept 30 (a Saturday) the last six bikes entered were Model 19s for the Sleightholme Police. Monday, Oct 2, back to WD bikes. Back then, engine, gearbox, frame, tank and forks all had their own serial number, and the only thing close to a sequence was the build card, on which the assemblers entered the serials for the various components.

BillT said:

Beginning Sept 6, 1939, .

Click to expand...

That was in Birmingham.

126124 was built in Plumstead.
Different Factory, different County,, different management, different workers, different system, different era, different bikes.

We notice in another thread here just recently though, you quote the last P11 was 126124.

What gives ? !!

Different level of comprehension, different cognitive capacity, different wood from the trees..Rohan, do you ..seriously...really... not get BillT's meaning...?

BillT has given the last P11 as 2 differing numbers in 2 threads here in a few days.
Where does that leave us ???
I don't mind a bit of argybargy over that number, but when they come from the same source ?!

I (sorta) took part in the NOC Factory Project - all those illegible (1930s) scribblings.
I would still take a lot of convincing that some of those words were even in the english language !

Never seen any evidence either that Plumstead used anything faintly like Birminghams record keeping system. Apparently, its not even recorded what models many Commandos were built as, let alone individually numbered parts, what colors,optional fitted bits, etc etc etc.. Although obviously the gearbox and frame number and engine no were made to all match up. (How and where was that done - did they match the engine to the frame no, or vice versa ??).

In fact, did early Commandos, or P11's even have any optionally fitted bits ?
1930s Nortons had a long long list of optional bits - some shown in the catalogs - and some options which weren't even listed.

Cheers.

It is great that the Norton factory production records exist for enthusiasts to use, but there are a few problems with information from them. The first is that there are mistakes and omissions in the records, and the second is unless you look at the records yourself any information you get from others about them is an interpretation and subject to errors.

I have had two different people look up information for the same motorcycle in the Norton factory records and got two different reports on what was written there for that motorcycle.

One person looking up information for me on a Norton in the records embellished what was written with their own opinion and guesses, no thanks.

An early 1962 650ss Norton looked up in the records was not entered in the records as being a 650ss.

People have looked at documents written by John Hudson, Peter Roydhouse and other old Norton employees and misquoted or embellished and twisted them to different meanings to suit agendas and special interests.

So when someone gets a peek at the Norton records or other documentation and tells everyone what they say, it is certainly not the last word on the subject as what they say depends not only on their reading ability but in what sort of knowledge, logic and common sense they have to interpret what they are looking at, which to me means just about no one is qualified to handle such documentation.

The only thing I would like to see done in the case of requests for factory records look-ups, is the pertaining section of the records scanned or photographed for the person who needs the information and that way they will have a REAL copy of what is there which they can study and interpret themselves. Until that happens I will take the reports on what is recorded for individual Norton motorcycles warily.

No documentation is perfect. The factory parts books, brochures and owner's manuals, the recorded letters and comments of old Norton employees, and what has been published in the many books on Norton motorcycles all has to be cross-checked and compared to actual existing motorcycles and parts if anyone wants the best idea of what really happened back when the bikes were being manufactured.

I would agree with Rohan that I would be very wary about comparing the records of the original Norton factory with what was done after 1962 by AMC and others that got control of the Norton name and pumped out consumer goods under that banner.

Rohan said:

That was in Birmingham.

126124 was built in Plumstead.
Different Factory, different County,, different management, different workers, different system, different era, different bikes.

We notice in another thread here just recently though, you quote the last P11 was 126124.

What gives ? !!

Click to expand...

The last P11A was P11/126123, then the factory switched over to Commando Production, beginning with 20M3/126125. I don't know if there was a machine built with 126124 assigned to it, or if the number was skipped. My only reference to 126124 was that I do know what it is or IF it is.

Let me quote from an article written by Anthony Curzon:
"The P11 series was made in 8 eight separate batches, with the G15CS, N15CS, Atlas, 650ss, G15CSR, G15Mk2, AJS 33 std, 33CSR, and the Commando made in between. One of those batches consisted of only 3 machines, but as a matter of record this can be recorded as a batched produced and dispatched. The following sequence of production numbers are as follows:

P11 - 1st 121007, last 123012. 4 batches made, totaling about 700
P11A - 1st 124372, last 126123. 3 batches made, totaling about 1300
P11A Ranger 750 - 1st 128646 last 129145. 1 batch made, totaling 496." the italics are mine, gleaned from other sources while rebuilding my Ranger.

Yes, the 1939 records are Bracebridge and a world away from Plumstead, but Norton, especially in 1967-68, was scrambling to fill orders and push machines out the door. I've read that management wanted to dump any AMC stuff. I heard from a couple of people that Plumstead had built a bunch of AJS 33s, but Berliner didn't want them, and the home market couldn't absorb them. Hundreds were re-stamped to fill a large Berliner order. As I've said elsewhere, if you have a machine from that period, check for stray marks on the engine stamping, you may find the remnants of another model code under your correct code. If Plumstead would batch 3 P11s in 1967, why wouldn't they batch just one machine in 1968, especially to complete an order and bring cash in the door?

The Mercury was an interesting bike in that it was built at all. I would love to have the board-room minutes on how it came about. All the Heavy Twin engines in 1968-69 were pretty much made to the same specification except there is the Mercury with it's small-bore engine requiring different machining of it's parts.

It seems like it would have been the most cost-effective for the factory to just produce one engine. The Mercury engine was not produced just to use up old parts either, as if you look at one you can see that the cylinder head casting is the same as the Commando. It would have been easy for AMC to drop the 650 twin altogether for 1966 when it did a revamp of many features of the engine such as the removal of the cylinder spigot and all the oil system mods.

It is one more thing that adds to the mystique of the 650 Norton, why it was kept around for so long with it's extra cost and small production runs along-side the 1962-on 750 engined bikes....

As for the Hybrids, if one looks at page 18 of the October 1963 Cycle World magazine, there is a news release telling how the Berliners placed an order for over $1,000,000 worth of machines, mostly Norton Atlas models. Deliveries started in August 63' and scheduled to be completed by January 1964. In the penthouse of the Dorchester Hotel, Park Lane, Mr. Berliner handed Chairman of AMC Norman Hulbert a bank draft of $250,000 as first payment. It says that in addition to this deal Berliner also put in a substantial order for a "750cc Scrambler model of a promising new specification for delivery as early as possible".
Also Berliner discussed with AMC ways to step up production, and the article also states that 6 months previously Berliner had given AMC $1.4 million for the 400 Electra twin! (Ouch).

The April 1964 cover of Cycle World is a photo of the new Atlas Scrambler sitting in a dirt field with no mufflers and knobbly tires.

Rohan, there is almost nothing illegible in the originals of the 1930s Norton ledgers, a lot of the problem lies in the microfilming (but the pages are so large that it's difficult to copy them with anything better). The handwriting of most is pretty much the standard script taught in English schools from about 1890 through until the early 1950s (and which I practised from my mother's old text books because I hated the sort of non-descript scribble that 1970s teachers were content with).

I certainly wouldn't take up old BMWs if I wanted easily read records (assuming the Russians didn't steal them in 1945) - those from the 1920s and '30s are likely to be in Sütterlin script and even modern Germans generally can't read that.

79x100 said:

Rohan, there is almost nothing illegible in the originals of the 1930s Norton ledgers.

Click to expand...

That is quite a funny statement !
I bought a new pair of reading glasses, then a large magnifying glass, and then even tried scanning the photocopy microfiche pages and printing them out at higher resolution. All to little avail - even the numbers 1, 6, 7 and 9 were virtually indistinguishable from each other in places, unless they were in numerical sequence when it was possible to figure them out. I have had some (slight) experience with dialects of german, and old high german script, and they are (relatively) easy compared to this - they follow some basic rules... !!

A lot of the problems in reading the factory ledgers stem from the fact that Nortons used a card to record the build of the bike from start to finish. When it was completed, and despatched, details of it were entered into the factory ledger, often in abbreviated form when it came to accessories fitted or special orders ?. Unfortunately, all the shop cards have been lost, or discarded, and all that is left is that pencilled line in the ledgers.

Do ANY of the shop cards survive ?
Do they record who built the bikes, or components ??

Rohan said:

Do ANY of the shop cards survive ?
Do they record who built the bikes, or components ??

Click to expand...

I bet some of those cards are sitting in a box in somebody's attic in Birmingham. I'm sure they listed who assembled the bike, or at least which team, because the records I transcribed listed the assembler as either 'J' or 'T'. I'm sure James and Tom (or Johnny and Tim) had help to push an average of 45 bikes a day out the door

As far as I can tell, there are no build cards and only the final road tester's name is shown. The only part that I sometimes find difficult are the names and addresses of the UK customers which are not always in the same hand.

The ledgers aren't pencilled, but most were written in a paleish blue ink on light blue pages and it's the lack of contrast which makes them difficult when working from copies but the books themselves are quite clear.

There is a story that John Hudson rescued the ledgers from a skip at Andover. I can imagine that there was an earlier clearout when everything was moved to Woolwich. Quite frankly it's amazing that anything survived.