max rev's?

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Here's a question that many hope not to experiance :!: at what rev's doe's a 850 commando engine fail :?: or doe's the motor just run out of breath before this happens :?:
I once rode a "hot" 650ss. the owner insisted i reved it untill the engine gasped, this was about 7500, it was a very un-nerving experiance,as he joked " keep your legs wide open when she's on the max" I ask why? he replied" so a rod will miss them" I felt the motor go numb after 7500, infact i had a job holding onto the high buzz bar ends, My vision went into a blur . but the engine held together.
So what is the rev limit before something gives?
 
Are we talking about being in gear and on the road? Or just the motor spinning away while you sit there with the clutch disengaged? I am fairly convinced in 4th gear you would have a hard time reaching an RPM that would destruct the motor based on my own youthful enthusiasm for breaking the ton. And while I have yet to "blow up" a Commando motor, I have destructed a few others and most often it involved clutching action and very high RPM in conjunction to actually get it to fly apart. I think most of these probably involved hitting a valve with a piston to start rather than centrifugal force actually causing it to fly to bits. But it is hard to tell sometimes during the event, and post mortems are not always conclusive as to what broke first.

Russ
 
Maximum piston speed in the order of some 4100 feet per minute.

Because the stroke is quite a bit more than than the bore on our Commandos, our rpm is limited to somewhere around 5000 for any "sustained" cruising, I personally consider 4500rpm maximum for sustained highway cruising.

The danger of trying to "find" the maximum rpm where the motor "fails" is likely to be when the valves float, as in not fully close, and therefore can touch each other....stronger valve springs pushes this limit a couple humored rpm higher.

After valve float, I would guess the next expensive failures would be the stock connecting rods, and then all hell would break loose.

I don't see what the point is for trying to find the point of rpm failure other than curiosity.

On the stock 850, I think Norton stated not to exceed some 7000rpm, with lighter weight pistons 750 a little higher?

Personally, I don't see any point on the 850 in going over 6000rpm as that seems to be where maximum horsepower is generated, any more than that you are in 4th gear and trying for all out top speed. Even then i don't know if a stock 850 will pull in 4th gear any more than a little more than 6000rpm? I don't know because I will not try it.
 
It was said that a good Combat 750 could reach 8000 rpm in the lower gears - which was where a lot of the main bearing and pistons separating problems occured.

Didn't the factory JPNs have problems with the cast iron flywheel/crankshaft disintegrating at rpm - someone punctured their rear tire with the flywheel at Daytona. ?

Now thats getting SERIOUS.....
 
Max. 8500 rpm Domiracer 500 (avatar) that is with one piece Nourish crank, Carrillo rods, Dunstall 10,5:1 pistons, SS-camshaft and very lightened valve train.
 
On my old 850, which I rode fast on the street and at the 1/4 mile drags, it was very noticeable how it ran out of power when the tach got close to 6000 rpm. This bike was in standard trim except for being run with various mufflers and megaphones after the originals rusted in two. None of the replacement exhaust parts seemed to make much difference.

My bike had a 19T gearbox sprocket on it when I got it, and I later changed to a 20 or 21 and can not remember it making any real difference in performance. The bike was so torquey down low it would pull off the line easily, and with the power dropping off at high revs it did not fight wind resistance well above 5k. When I raced it I never revved it above 6k when shifting, it probably would have gone slower if I did.

I rode it a lot in high gear with the tach bouncing close to 6K, it did not ever want to pull much higher than that unless going downhill with the right wind and temperature. I blew a lot of oil out onto the highway too.

At the drags it would hit about 99 mph, probably limited by the skinny street tire I had on the rear, it would spin quite a ways through first.

I don't think these bikes were meant to be anything be anything but mildly tuned practical transportation as they were supplied.

When ridden hard , which was all the time it got pretty bad fuel mileage, which did not work well with the small roadster tank, probably in the low thirties during high-speed touring above 70mph.

With the 850 Norton made the engine larger, kept the same camshaft and dropped the compression, a good recipe for less hp per cubic inch and moving the power to a lower rpm range.

The 650 Norton which I also rode for years and also took to the drags, I think had the same camshaft profile as all later 750/850 twins. It had higher compression than the 850, a crank that weighed about the same, much lighter pistons (68mm bore), smaller valves and smaller carbs at 1 1/16 vs. 1 1/4 for the 850s. It was several mph slower through the quarter mile with a granny launch, no dropping the clutch or spinning the rear wheel.

You could feel the 650 pulling hard at higher revs, it would though with the same cam in a smaller engine, it would pull right up over 6k in lower gears easily and I think it would go just as fast as the 850 on the top end. Not because it had all the power the 850 had, but what it had it made at higher rpm. In Cycle World's 1962 test of the 650 Norton Manxman, they say that the factory recommended rpm limit was 6800 rpm, but in the test they used 7500 as a shift point in tests and said there was never any sign that it caused the engine distress, they also said the valves would float at a bit under 8000.

So knowing the 850 had heavier valves and pistons than the 650 would make me think that in standard form and in good shape 6000 would be a good limit for the bike. I eventually bent the valves in my 850 missing a shift made at full throttle where I was just slapping the clutch lever to snick it into the next higher gear. It was fun while it lasted. How accurate is the tach on those bikes as supplied anyway? When I missed my shift, by the time I looked at the tach it was still not down to 6k. It got me home but never had enough compression to re-start after that.

Thanks for your time......
 
I do have some sense of this, keeping in mind the wisdom expressed about defining various load states you try testing faith on. In my case I first asked other decades old lists/
What breaks first?... and also archived discussion of crank and case issues on Capt. Norton's site, with the drag racers being the cutting edge of over doing it.

If valve float not limiting rpm then next thing to go in factory engines is usually the cast iron flywheel or cases cracking. This is also about where contact breakers bounce and misfire to strain the crank and cases further. These things happen in the early red zone up into 8000-ish. Lighten flywheel, upgrade ignition will allow some time over 7000 but is accelerating wear into racer replacement schedules. This is zone TC and era desert racers ran theirs up to for short intervals and lived to repeat it a season of events or more.

Going into 9K+ rpm starts to tip crank ends to bind on the flat roller and superblend bearings and the case bores holding them. Extra count HD ball bearings allow further rpm jump rope tolerance but wear out faster. This gets into rod bolt let go and piston splitting crank stroke acceleration jerk down loads.
Oh yeah and crankshaft plastic deformation ie: beyond mere elastic phase.
Steve Maney limits his full race Daytona 920's to 7200 rpm though could tolerate beyond that for a while, but always a mystery how long.

When 750 Peel went beyond 11K things happen that just don't apply to anyone else and one of a few reasons there ain't no rpm limiting Lucas alternator on her next incarnation. Might also require getting rid of the oil pump snout ahead of time too.
 
6000 rpm with a 21 gearbox sprocket is 102 mph for an 850 in the workshop manual.

It is well recorded at the time that the power dropped off much over 6000 rpm with the stock cam and compression in an 850. But should still pull strongly to 100 for overtaking ...

Note too that brochure mention of max touring rpm at 5900 rpm.
Which must be close to a neat 100 ?
 
One thing for sure (though not specifically on-topic) is that I've heard more stories of blown up Norton big twins (mostly Commandos) than Triumph big twins.

Of all those Commando blow-up stories, almost all were on MODIFIED engines, and/or engines that had been previouslyoverhauled. Conversely, most of the Triumph blow-up stories were on STOCK, original engines.

Wierd. I am sure there are at least a half-dozen explanations and rationalizations, but virtually all of thge stories involves testing the red line and beyond, in one way or another.
 
1up3down said:
Because the stroke is quite a bit more than than the bore on our Commandos, our rpm is limited to somewhere around 5000 for any "sustained" cruising, I personally consider 4500rpm maximum for sustained highway cruising.

.
I went for about 10 mile at 5000rpm yesterday. Hovering around 90mph + and - and other than the buffeting wind, I found it smooth, calming and relaxing. 4500 is closer to 80 and much closer to legal.
I believe 6500 is redline for 850's.
 
pvisseriii said:
I believe 6500 is redline for 850's.

The tacho redline says 7000.
And the workshop manual gives speeds up to and at 7000, with various sprockets fitted.

Draw your own conclusions...
 
WHILE WHERE HERE , its a lot more stressful Throttle Shut at whatever revs . Destressing , the rod will part company .

Generally delinquants hit villages at 80 mph & drop it in 2nd . Do Niether .

The old tecnique for cooling the brakes was Brake Hard ,to acceptable rpms ( pref half or less , MAX 2/3 ) WHEN ENGAGED .

Ease brakes to cool , repeat . ETC .

Utiliseing max rpms on changedown WITHOUT throttle ON is liable to end expenseively. Not that we didnt know that :? .
 
Thank's lads, you have concluded the engine parts will fail before the breathing deminish's...from what you lads are saying.

1st; valve float
2nd; valve tangle
3rd, Rod failure.
Finaly and most extream...crank breakage
Thanks again and enjoy....below 6K!
 
john robert bould said:
Thank's lads, you have concluded the engine parts will fail before the breathing deminish's...from what you lads are saying.

Mmmm, in 850s with a standard cam the power drops off over 6000 rpm, so that would be an indication that it is running out of breath. They were generally considered a lot more robust than those early hand grenade Combat 750s. Although if you hoon around on your 850 at redline, you are probably riding the wrong bike...
 
Rohan said:
john robert bould said:
Thank's lads, you have concluded the engine parts will fail before the breathing deminish's...from what you lads are saying.

Mmmm, in 850s with a standard cam the power drops off over 6000 rpm, so that would be an indication that it is running out of breath. They were generally considered a lot more robust than those early hand grenade Combat 750s. Although if you hoon around on your 850 at redline, you are probably riding the wrong bike...

I agree, and for the $$$ sake i keep the engine speed at SAFE r.p.m, Check out the posting on here regarding the guy who bought a "Bit" of a restro from Africa,,The bike had blown up, leaving a couple of crankcase vents!
Some mention crank failure, is that to do with vibration or due to a valve getting bent ,then the piston's attempt to straighten it back out ?
What i am asking {hypothethicaly] if a crank/piston assembly [no valve train]where spun in a lathe [god forbid" at 9000 ,would it hold together? or would the secondary harmonic's simply destroy the assembly? in other words...shake it's self to bits :?:
 
GRM 450 said:
I wouldn't like to do that to my lathe,,,,(or stand anywhere near it)
Nor I, I did state it was an Hypothectical question, proberly requiring an Hypothectical reply. I wuldnt spin a crank at 2000 in a lathe :!: .but doe'snt it amaze you that all that gismo..crank,rod's ,pistons etc can fling round at 7000 rpm? which is nothing compared to 17,000 rpm that modern bikes do :!:
 
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