Manx Norton’s have more in common with Moto GP bikes than we might think…

At the last Cadwell meet, Andy Molnar's Manx best lap was 1:48.53. Tim Horton on his ex Gary Thwaites 1007cc Seeley Commando best lap was 1:51.26. Tim and Andy can both ride fast, but the Manx won.
 
storm42 said:
At the last Cadwell meet, Andy Molnar's Manx best lap was 1:48.53. Tim Horton on his ex Gary Thwaites 1007cc Seeley Commando best lap was 1:51.26. Tim and Andy can both ride fast, but the Manx won.
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Nuff said !
 
Its been the case at all circuits for many many years. Only Gary was up there on Daves Seeley Commando. Over race distance its two different groups.
 
Chris said:
Its been the case at all circuits for many many years. Only Gary was up there on Daves Seeley Commando. Over race distance its two different groups.
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Told you before mate… yours would be much faster if the frame wasn’t orange…
 
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In the Scandinavian series it´'s like this: Up to 1972 500cc. Close between a Paton, a Petty Manx and a G50Seeley. In up to 1972 750cc. Same guys on overbored Petty Manx and G50Seeley. Then way slower CommandoSeeleys.
To me it seems that there is no big difference in lap times between Seeley and Manx frames. Both handles well. A good rider might prefer one or the other. Even read about a top rider in the fifties that liked the 7R better.
But there is more to frames than geometry and weight distribution. Stiffness in different directions play a big role. Just think about that when leaning hard, knee and maybe elbow close to ground, how does suspension handle a bump when force comes sideways.
Even with modern computer aided analysis you are only close to best chassis design. The final design is determined by the MotoGP riders. Valentino Rosso is said to give best feedback of them all.
 
We have Molnar Manxes in Oz . They only race in a pre 63 class. I must be a complete idiot. The rake on the Seeley is 27 deg
 
Mike40M said:
In the Scandinavian series it´'s like this: Up to 1972 500cc. Close between a Paton, a Petty Manx and a G50Seeley. In up to 1972 750cc. Same guys on overbored Petty Manx and G50Seeley. Then way slower CommandoSeeleys.
To me it seems that there is no big difference in lap times between Seeley and Manx frames. Both handles well. A good rider might prefer one or the other. Even read about a top rider in the fifties that liked the 7R better.
But there is more to frames than geometry and weight distribution. Stiffness in different directions play a big role. Just think about that when leaning hard, knee and maybe elbow close to ground, how does suspension handle a bump when force comes sideways.
Even with modern computer aided analysis you are only close to best chassis design. The final design is determined by the MotoGP riders. Valentino Rosso is said to give best feedback of them all.
Click to expand...
When a Seeley has more trail it stays more upright in corners like a Manx. It over steers more than a Manx. If you do not gas it hard as you enter the corner you do not notice the oversteer.
 
acotrel said:
When a Seeley has more trail it stays more upright in corners like a Manx. It over steers more than a Manx. If you do not gas it hard as you enter the corner you do not notice the oversteer.
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Are Seeley G 50s fast.
 
Rider in their right mind should use full throttle as they enter a corner.
Try it. You could be the next Marquez
 
A cheap alternative for racing a Commando motor might be a BSA A10 frame with 1964 Triumph fork yokes
 
BSA A 10 fork yokes have too much offset. So nobody uses that frame. But with more trail the A10 frame is excellent.
 
Mike40M said:
In the Scandinavian series it´'s like this: Up to 1972 500cc. Close between a Paton, a Petty Manx and a G50Seeley. In up to 1972 750cc. Same guys on overbored Petty Manx and G50Seeley. Then way slower CommandoSeeleys.
To me it seems that there is no big difference in lap times between Seeley and Manx frames. Both handles well. A good rider might prefer one or the other. Even read about a top rider in the fifties that liked the 7R better.
But there is more to frames than geometry and weight distribution. Stiffness in different directions play a big role. Just think about that when leaning hard, knee and maybe elbow close to ground, how does suspension handle a bump when force comes sideways.
Even with modern computer aided analysis you are only close to best chassis design. The final design is determined by the MotoGP riders. Valentino Rosso is said to give best feedback of them all.
Click to expand...
If you are on full lean out with the others in the procession then frame rigidity and tyres are more important. But not if you can blast up the inside. You just need to be careful of the others coming down as they leave the corner.
 
It is a very strange feeling when your bike self steers itself around the inside of a corner. It feels wrong to me. But it is faster.
 
If you practice braking further into corners and getting on the gas earlier coming out you will discover how much you bike oversteers without crashing. Then you can use it to better effect.
 
acotrel said:
Is Andy smarter than Joe.
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Unlikely. As demonstrated by the fact that Norton drew up a 4 valver themselves. However, Andy is not hampered by the politics, or budget constraints that Joe and the race dept allegedly faced (well documented). He also has the benefits of 60+ years of advanced human knowledge, continued development at the forefront of highly competitive racing, and access to machine tools that Joe couldn’t have even dreamed of.

Joe did the heavy lifting, the hard thinking, the breakthrough work. Andy is standing on his shoulders. When you stand on someone’s shoulders, you are able to reach higher…
 
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