Maney gearbox outrigger bearing: help please...

Chaps,

I'm at that stage of the build where I have to decide whether or not to fit a Maney outrigger set up.

I've been forwards and backwards with this decision! I know its a lot of faffing around, but it does seem like good peace of mind to know you're de-stressing the gearbox with one fitted.

The motor is 850, 10:1 CR, JS pistons, rods, cams, FCR carbs, light belt primary and Barnet clutch pack. To be used for 'fast road use' and blasting around on for fun. It won't do massive high mileages, but it will get caned somewhat.

What do you reckon guys, outrigger, or no outrigger...??

Re: Maney gearbox outrigger bearing

Fast road use - if the gearbox is in good shape and you are starting with straight main and layshafts, an outrigger is not an essential but nice to have; just be smooth on your up shifts and down shifts. Gear boxes are also trashed due to shock loading when down shifting and the rear wheel begins to skip.

In my opinion, if you have a TTI gear box, then an outrigger becomes a bit redundant. Consider the cost of an outrigger and then the incremental cost of a TTI box with all of the TTI box benefits of gearing and quality shifting....but I digress.

Fast road use - outrigger is not essential if you exercise care.

Re: Maney gearbox outrigger bearing

If fitting a belt drive to hot rod Norton power the AMC needs out rigger to save sleeve bushes and main shaft bowing to bind and blow up box or throw off the belt. Maney out rigger will not fit the ITT main shaft diameter so would have to modify the mount to accept a new size bearing. If careful AMC box can handle almost 100 hp the dragster dudes told me but then spills guts on track. They could get away with it because of the always hi rpm power applied to it but road racers must dump power on form lower rpms to AMC can't take 100 hp used that way. i've a used but good spare out rigger I'm stuck with from past Peel and don't need it on my wimpy factory Combat with oily triplex to seal up too. When I 1st got a Commando in '99 and hunting folks to help understand it and parts sources I came upon old racers local and distant before finding the regular vendors so got an ear and eye full beyond my imagination of what breaks first and what to do about it. My light P!! put out as much as any Axtel or Woods engines and never blew its tranny, at least on a street tire which can only take so much power before just lets go. If I was tooling along with 60 mph traffic in the way I'd snick to 2nd and light up tire to flat tracker slide w/o leaning much into oncoming, let off an instant for tire hook up to straighten up then nail it around a few cars then snick 3rd about 90 mph till next bunch to deal with.

Re: Maney gearbox outrigger bearing

My mainshaft was warn in the sleeve gear area. When replacing it and rebushing the box, the decision to add the bearing was easier than getting one in my hands.

With the big cam ,big carb, big pipes etc, and the addition of the 19t sprocket from the 20t, It is nice to know that I can somewhat safely,how you say "blasting around on for fun" without over stressing these vital drive componants.

Quite frankly, I think the outrigger should be standard equipment with that spindly thing hanging out there with the spinning mass carrying the primary load and all.

Re: Maney gearbox outrigger bearing

As you've got the belt drive and you've already spent a small fortune you might as well go for it , although you are sure that the mainshaft and drive shaft are square in two planes to each other to stop the belt from shredding? :?

Re: Maney gearbox outrigger bearing

Al-otment said:

As you've got the belt drive and you've already spent a small fortune you might as well go for it , although you are sure that the mainshaft and drive shaft are square in two planes to each other to stop the belt from shredding? :?

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"Small fortune...?"

I don't recall mentioning the word "small" !!

Re: Maney gearbox outrigger bearing

Churlish not to, I think.

I replaced the 2nd gear pair on my MkIIa as they were badly spalled, and the new gears are going the same way.
I suspect this wouldn't happen with an outrigger?

Here's mine anyway

Re: Maney gearbox outrigger bearing

B+Bogus said:

Churlish not to, I think.

I replaced the 2nd gear pair on my MkIIa as they were badly spalled, and the new gears are going the same way.
I suspect this wouldn't happen with an outrigger?

Here's mine anyway

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That's very neat hatchet work Andy, I've been thinking about the best way to measure and mark and cut. The small gaps around yours could probably be filled with silicone or similar, that's what I hope to be able to do, mines a road bike and I don't want chain lube and crap being thrown into the chain case to compromise the belt etc.

Re: Maney gearbox outrigger bearing

It is probably cheaper to rebuild the stock box regularly than buy a TTI assuming you are old and dont drive
all that hard and all that much.
But is is a treadmill .
I got the TTI and have already forgotten paying for it.
The standard box is not confidence inspiring.

Re: Maney gearbox outrigger bearing

Surely the only time the standard box is inadequate is when it is used for clutch starts on race circuits , or perhaps when accelerating away from traffic lights on public roads, in first gear ? Increasing the primary drive ratio and lowering the secondary could be a good thing if you can live with it. The motor in that situation has less purchase on the gearbox. For myself, on any bike I don't usually give it heaps in first gear, and I discipline myself to make all gear changes smoothly. This comes from many years of racing on bad tyres.

Re: Maney gearbox outrigger bearing

Fast Eddie said:

it does seem like good peace of mind to know you're de-stressing the gearbox with one fitted.

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That really sums it up. The outrigger is really not that big a chunk of change. One less thing to worry about so not a bad idea for the price.

I had flogged a Commando road racer for four seasons and had only one problem due to the well know layshaft bearing issue. Otherwise the box took a tremendous beating and all sorts of abuse but then I recalled adding a ball bearing on the right hand side of the layshaft (removed the kick start internals) and I suspect that made the difference. As I recall, it reduced the unsupported span of the layshaft by a bit and held a better tolerance (registered better) with the main shaft and its gears. It was a trick little kit that someone put me on to.

Re: Maney gearbox outrigger bearing

B+, from what I've seen i think the clutch drag can a bow and twist the main shaft stalk which mis aligns cog and dog faces to rub wrong. That is best out rigger cut out shown so far so educate me-us on how ya marked it so close to out rigger and spacing for belt tension. Don't expect silly con to seal oil in with that much gap to fill in on such thin edges but would keep some grit and water out. I resorted to thin Al sheet across face of out rigger and over lapped on wall of case so large area of sealant to hole sheet in place and not let a drop of creek or mud inside. Of course once belt distance set could just weld the out rigger in place to seal permanent and still remove inner case by accessing gear box bolts from above and below case.

Re: Maney gearbox outrigger bearing

I rebuilt my gearbox in 1979 when the laysharf bearing blew, I haven't touched it since and have only gone in the box to replace the kick start pause (4 times now), my 850 has a bit of work done to the motor and it has taken a bit of a flogging over the years (I have never grown up), I never rev it hard in first gear but second and third does get a good flogging, my gears change are so smoothly with just a light click and its been that way since new.

If you look after your gearbox I don't think a outrigger is needed, but they do look good.

Ashley

Re: Maney gearbox outrigger bearing

Ashely you must of lucked out again, to have a decent made gear box and no one prior to you over doing it. To say outrigger not needed speaks more of timid sane operation or logic ends up insulting the intelligence of Steve Maney to offer it and those buying it. I don't need one on my factory Combat either as not really enjoying 2S cam much and sticking with chain gang.

Re: Maney gearbox outrigger bearing

hobot said:

B+, from what I've seen i think the clutch drag can a bow and twist the main shaft stalk which mis aligns cog and dog faces to rub wrong. That is best out rigger cut out shown so far so educate me-us on how ya marked it so close to out rigger and spacing for belt tension. Don't expect silly con to seal oil in with that much gap to fill in on such thin edges but would keep some grit and water out. I resorted to thin Al sheet across face of out rigger and over lapped on wall of case so large area of sealant to hole sheet in place and not let a drop of creek or mud inside. Of course once belt distance set could just weld the out rigger in place to seal permanent and still remove inner case by accessing gear box bolts from above and below case.

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Thanks for the compliment!
It came out that way I suppose due to a traditional British Engineering craft apprenticeship and a 'few' more years under my belt since. :wink:
I established the shaft centres to suit the belt drive without the cover fitted, offered the inner cover up and marked the rear face with a marker pen around the outrigger.
I then chain-drilled 1/4" inch inside the lines, cleaned up and then progressively trimmed it back more while checking the fit.
The top and bottom gaps are actually pretty big - I'm making no attempt to seal it as the bike will be track-centric with some road use - as per Eddie's

That said it wouldn't be too big a challenge to make an inner liner out of fibreglass or suchlike to re-establish some kind of environmental shielding - I just made sure that whatever can get in there can get out just as easily.

Back to the subject of how necessary or not one is, I know a racer who went through around sixteen gearboxes in one season - I've ridden on the road with him and he's the most aggressive rider I've had the privilege to try and keep up with!
Like with the Combat oiling issue - only hard and aggressive use will reveal how necessary the mod is.
Just look through all the race reports - retirement through gearbox failure, and the work Peter Williams and Norman White put in to re-establishing some rigidity in the set-up. Steve Maney is just responding to a real need for those who put them on a race track.
After spending the price of a bike on a Quaife box, I didn't think twice :wink:

Re: Maney gearbox outrigger bearing

Steve I don't know if its luck with my Norton but it has always been a reliable bike to me, I do the maintenance when its time, run good oils in it and it has never let me down, but one thing I do is I talk to it, I thank it when i get home safely, I have broken a few thing but from my own fault not the bike, or using infeaor parts, the gearbox is strong if you don't over do it to them.

Ashley

Re: Maney gearbox outrigger bearing

My bike has only done approx 20,000 miles from new. It has not had a hard life either (yet) and the gearbox internals were like new. I don't think the box had ever been stripped before and it still had the dodgy layshaft bearing fitted!
Even so, the bloody gearbox case was cracked, quite badly too, I know some say it is ok to use them cracked, but that didn't appeal to me.
I suspect that the crack may have been caused, or at least assisted, by the PO fitting an incorrect belt and running it quite a lot too tight. Something I don't intend to do!
Nevertheless, with such low mileage and relatively easy life, it shows the inherent weakness for it to crack thus.
I've emailed Mr M, if he has outriggers in stock I'll fit one.
Sod's law says that if I don't... I'll wish I had!!
Oh yes... and a TTI box is DEFINITELY out of scope on this job!

Re: Maney gearbox outrigger bearing

B+Bogus said:

Back to the subject of how necessary or not one is, I know a racer who went through around sixteen gearboxes in one season - I've ridden on the road with him and he's the most aggressive rider I've had the privilege to try and keep up with!
Like with the Combat oiling issue - only hard and aggressive use will reveal how necessary the mod is.
Just look through all the race reports - retirement through gearbox failure, and the work Peter Williams and Norman White put in to re-establishing some rigidity in the set-up. Steve Maney is just responding to a real need for those who put them on a race track.
After spending the price of a bike on a Quaife box, I didn't think twice :wink:

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First, I have a TTi box for race use, but raced a 4 speed with Commando clutch and long mainshaft for four years and a high primary ratio (1.727:1) without taking the cover off.....it was a decent 4 Speed I built myself with a new Quaife cluster and a Manx style ball bearing on the layshaft end in place of the kickstart bush.....that made a huge difference...

But the real reason agrressive racers were changing a gearbox every week in the '70s is that the 5 speed box with thinner gears and alow primary ratio (as low as the standard Commando 2.192:1) was having a really hard time flexing shafts, and they weren't all using the heavier Commando clutch and longer mainshaft which definately exacerbated the problem. BTW, no use talking about 19t Sprockets in place of 20t unless you have calculaed you overall gearing, with my 1.727:1 I used a 17t! with a choice of 40 to 46 rear sprockets

What I lost using the 4 Speed was the lower first gear, but we push started in those days and the guys with 5 Speeds pushed off in 2nd anyway, and my 1st to 4th ratios were the same as their 2nd to 5th, actually at club level most of them would have been better off with a good 4 Speed...with very few hairpin bends demanding the use of a very low 1st, unless you were perhaps on IoM gearing!

The outrigger in essence was the JPN solution, but combined with a lighter clutch and higher ratio primary that had a huge effect too....the thing that really didn't change was the gearbox itself! But using a full house outrigger with a chain required something very different to Steve's bolt on device, which is a great solution as a bolt on if you don't have a TTi and works well with a belt.

For a road bike with a standard 4 speed in good condition you should not 'need' an outrigger, but that odd track day might suggest it is worth the relatively small investment compared to the cost of one broken box and subsequent TTi 'solution'.

Like the man said the TTi makes an outrigger redundant....Bruce Verdon is adamant you don't need one, and the evidence is there on 4, 5 and 6 Speeds.

Re: Maney gearbox outrigger bearing

Hi Nige

If Steve doesn't have one in stock I have a used one on the shelf that you can use for now. If nothing else you can use it to jig up the chaincases.

Chris

Re: Maney gearbox outrigger bearing

Steve I don't know if its luck with my Norton but it has always been a reliable bike to me, I do the maintenance when its time, run good oils in it and it has never let me down, but one thing I do is I talk to it, I thank it when i get home safely, I have broken a few thing but from my own fault not the bike, or using infeaor parts, the gearbox is strong if you don't over do it to them. Ashley

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As I've said Ashely, your reports are wonderful if remarkably rare. I've two Combats with issues and my buddy Wes's '71 and years of hearing the more common fails that gives life to these forums. I left cycles after nothing could impress me after the P!! 9000 rpm wonder beast and the 1st Combat I saw/bought came from the shop it was the test bike for and then told it sold to hot shots that spread its fame around so I abused it immediately by Gravels crashes, valve floating shock in close hyw pass then same week rode in wrong lane with HD's doing the ton+ and a day later torn off my R knee at time trials. 'God' rested with me on the 8th day and some seasons to regrow the knee, only refractured once on a backfire launch d/t instructions on Boyah to set adv to 32'. I'm taking Trixie down to crank and AMC main shaft to reseal and quite surprised to find gear box -bushes about pristine after 8K miles, avoiding lower gears as much as practical and when I feel her second wind hit about 90 mph and able to keep up with elite bikes zooms on fast fun runs I reflect on cost of pay back and let off to catch right up on next mere easy sweeper they pile up so close on. Shoot I do too on my 2 corner cripples, Trixie and SuVee. Out rigger is over kill for my timid factory Trixie Combat use and not needed with Peel's ITT so another spare part on shed wall to be rid of.