MANEY CYLINDERS

seattle##gs · Nov 6, 2015

I was reading the post about Nicasil liners and came across a subject that needs its own thread.

I put a 750 motor together for a friend and had a few odd problems. It has a set of Maney cylinders and a set of Schmidt forged pistons. I used a flame ring gasket which for some reason did not work in this case. Oil leakage from the 5/16 bolts. I replaced with a copper gasket and the bit of .005 copper wire surrounding the pushrod tunnels and the problem bolts. It ran very well but didn't seem to control the oil as well as it should.

But that is not my real question. The motor had approx 300 miles on it when I decided to replace the head gasket. I was also having crankcase venting problems, still not my question.

The cylinders had some strange patches, different in color, in each cylinder, sort of a rusty color. I could not tell if these were worn differently than the rest of the cylinder but the whole thing was brand new and clean. I could not account for these patches and neither could the machine shop.
After reading this forum it seems there is a problem with Maney cylinders warping a bit as things are tightened down...am I correct? I am very careful to use the stock Norton bolting pattern and torque settings and on a stock motor it works very well. Am I running into some thing peculiar to Maney cylinders and need to do something differently?

By the way, I have enough .005 copper wire to last several lifetimes...anybody want some?

comnoz · Nov 6, 2015

seattle##gs said:
I was reading the post about Nicasil liners and came across a subject that needs its own thread.

I put a 750 motor together for a friend and had a few odd problems. It has a set of Maney cylinders and a set of Schmidt forged pistons. I used a flame ring gasket which for some reason did not work in this case. Oil leakage from the 5/16 bolts. I replaced with a copper gasket and the bit of .005 copper wire surrounding the pushrod tunnels and the problem bolts. It ran very well but didn't seem to control the oil as well as it should.

But that is not my real question. The motor had approx 300 miles on it when I decided to replace the head gasket. I was also having crankcase venting problems, still not my question.

The cylinders had some strange patches, different in color, in each cylinder, sort of a rusty color. I could not tell if these were worn differently than the rest of the cylinder but the whole thing was brand new and clean. I could not account for these patches and neither could the machine shop.
After reading this forum it seems there is a problem with Maney cylinders warping a bit as things are tightened down...am I correct? I am very careful to use the stock Norton bolting pattern and torque settings and on a stock motor it works very well. Am I running into some thing peculiar to Maney cylinders and need to do something differently?

By the way, I have enough .005 copper wire to last several lifetimes...anybody want some?

Hard to say without seeing it -but I would expect some bad wear patterns if the cylinders where not bolted to a torque plate when the pistons were fitted.
And yes, any aluminum Norton barrels that I have seen, suffer from some distortion. Jim

seattle##gs · Nov 6, 2015

I had a leak down test done before I pulled it apart.....5% on one side and 6% on the other...not bad but I wanted and expected better. It just seemed like the rings did not want to seat.

seattle##gs · Nov 6, 2015

So I guess that Maney does not use a torque plate when he hones his cylinders?

comnoz · Nov 6, 2015

seattle##gs said:
So I guess that Maney does not use a torque plate when he hones his cylinders?

I don't know. I have always got them unfinished and fitted my own pistons or bored them for oversize pistons. That way I know. Jim

Bernhard · Nov 7, 2015

Re; “The cylinders had some strange patches, different in colour, in each cylinder, sort of a rusty colour. I could not tell if these were worn differently than the rest of the cylinder but the whole thing was brand new and clean. I could not account for these patches and neither could the machine shop.”

I suggest you remove the cylinders and take them to an engine re-boring specialist and ask them to check with their clock gauge if the bore is distorted. The brown spots could be a manufacturing process fault, it’s pretty unusual and i have seen a few Nicalsil bores.

Matchless · Nov 7, 2015

Although I can't speak for Mr Maney, I would imagine that the barrels were not bolted to torque plates. Quite a few engine machinists (U.K.) I've spoken to, think their use is not important. Most U.S. builders seem to use them, & to me it makes a lot of sense.

o0norton0o · Nov 7, 2015

seattle##gs said:
I had a leak down test done before I pulled it apart.....5% on one side and 6% on the other...not bad but I wanted and expected better. It just seemed like the rings did not want to seat.

Could the compressor that you used to pressurize the cylinders for the leak down test have had some water in the line? Maybe that water blew by the rings and stained the cylinder wall. If you didn't rotate the engine much after the leak down test, perhaps some blowby would have left a ghostly shadow... OR as you suspect, the cylinder bore isn't true and the rust colored ghost is a "miss" in the rings' wear pattern...

It sucks to need to have new parts checked by qualified machinist, but I would say that's where you are now...

*When I rebuilt my bike, I reassembled the wrist pins with these cheap wire circlips.(I didn't know any better) After a few hundred miles of riding, one popped out at about 65mph. I heard a "pop" and saw a blue cloud of smoke out of one pipe in my mirror. I pulled the clutch, turned the key off and coasted to a stop. I trucked the bike home and had to take the finished bike back apart to find the problem. I still have those stupid wire circlips in a bag in my parts bin to remind me how a single tiny thing can ruin your rebuild. I replaced those circlips with the cut steel version which have had no issues over the years. I had to send the barrels back to the machinst again...

jseng1 · Nov 7, 2015

Tell us if it is a 750 or an 850

You will figure out the problem with the right help. Note that I also have Maney cylinders (750) in my test bike with the same forged pistons. Its been more than 6 years and over 23,000 miles with the same rings. The leak down test is under 1% for each cylinder (gapless rings). Maybe I got a straight hone and no distortion with the smaller bore. I never saw any "patches" on the cylinder wall when I repaired a copper head gasket leak by adding the .005" copper wire.

see the leak down test at:

[video]http://youtu.be/3S50Lvo9c-0[/video]

seattle##gs · Nov 7, 2015

This is a 750 motor.

Along time ago I made a torqueplate for a Norton from steel plate about 1 1/2" thick. I bolted everything up...motor, cylinders and torque plate into an engine stand and had the local shop measure the bore...there was no distortion. I never used it again.

The machine shop here in Seattle honed the bore and I fit new rings. He couldn't make the discolored spots go away with a standard hone so he used a bead type...which suggests high and low spots in the cylinder. It is back together but due to Seattle weather has only been started once and not ridden.

gripper · Nov 9, 2015

I'd never heard of a torque plate until I started on this forum. Can somebody fill me in on the details and finer points?

grandpaul · Nov 9, 2015

gripper said:
I'd never heard of a torque plate until I started on this forum. Can somebody fill me in on the details and finer points?

Sounds to me like it securely holds the cylinders in relative alignment while the boring bar does it's work.

gortnipper · Nov 9, 2015

gripper said:
I'd never heard of a torque plate until I started on this forum. Can somebody fill me in on the details and finer points?

When you hone with a torque plate with head gasket and properly torqued bolts, the torque will distort the block the way it is going to be when the engine is assembled. So, when you do your hone the bore will end up being totally round.

MANEY CYLINDERS

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