Ludwig cam oil bath tub
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Re: Ludwig creates cam bath tub
There is some interesting stuff here from beltdriveman. Even a comment from ludwig.
I miss bdm posts.
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthrea ... #Post65867
Bill G
There is some interesting stuff here from beltdriveman. Even a comment from ludwig.
I miss bdm posts.
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthrea ... #Post65867
Bill G
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Re: Ludwig creates cam bath tub
I made one of them also -a long time ago. Mine went completely around the cam with holes cut in the top for lifter clearance.
I would post a picture of it if I could find it. I removed it after the cam failed. I learned it is not the quantity of oil but the quality of oil. Jim
I made one of them also -a long time ago. Mine went completely around the cam with holes cut in the top for lifter clearance.
I would post a picture of it if I could find it. I removed it after the cam failed. I learned it is not the quantity of oil but the quality of oil. Jim
Re: Ludwig creates cam bath tub
I think Comstock may be referring to quality, as in brand. Years ago I had a conversation with the owner of Web Cam. She's no fan of a particular, popular brand of synthetic, I'll tell you. I don't intend to start an oil debate here, but you won't know how well your oil is performing unless you do a tear down. I'd venture to say more than a few Norton cams are being re-profiled without the owner not knowing so. That was the case with me. I'd been using the brand of synthetic the aforementioned Web Cam owner detests.
I think Comstock may be referring to quality, as in brand. Years ago I had a conversation with the owner of Web Cam. She's no fan of a particular, popular brand of synthetic, I'll tell you. I don't intend to start an oil debate here, but you won't know how well your oil is performing unless you do a tear down. I'd venture to say more than a few Norton cams are being re-profiled without the owner not knowing so. That was the case with me. I'd been using the brand of synthetic the aforementioned Web Cam owner detests.
Re: Ludwig creates cam bath tub
No need for tear down, lack of performance, magnetic drain plug and looking in the gauze strainer will give an indication of how well the oil is performing / cam wear. Here in the UK, Tesco own brand synthetic has, or at least did have, a higher rating than Mobil 1 and is a lot cheaper than monograde - been using it for years.
No need for tear down, lack of performance, magnetic drain plug and looking in the gauze strainer will give an indication of how well the oil is performing / cam wear. Here in the UK, Tesco own brand synthetic has, or at least did have, a higher rating than Mobil 1 and is a lot cheaper than monograde - been using it for years.
Re: Ludwig creates cam bath tub
The synthetic oil I was using was of the automotive variety. Although I can't blame the cam failure upon that particular oil, as I had used another brand of oil, also.
Is there more zinc in the V-twin variety than the automotive kind?
comnoz said:
The synthetic oil I was using was of the automotive variety. Although I can't blame the cam failure upon that particular oil, as I had used another brand of oil, also.
Is there more zinc in the V-twin variety than the automotive kind?
Re: Ludwig creates cam bath tub
I vaguely remember reading an article by an engineer from Porsche, talking about the lubrication of high performance air cooled engines. He suggested that using a top quality mono grade oil (eg 50 weight) was far better than multi grade oil. More tenacious etc etc.
Also, I overheard Reter Williams saying that he was so concerned about the lubrication in a Norton engine, that on a long fast circuit after a "while" at full throttle he would snap the throttle shut the instantly back to full bore. The rationale being to create a depression in the crankcase thus sucking oil into dry spots. Whether there was anything in this, who knows? Sounds like a good theory to me.
cheers
wakeup
I vaguely remember reading an article by an engineer from Porsche, talking about the lubrication of high performance air cooled engines. He suggested that using a top quality mono grade oil (eg 50 weight) was far better than multi grade oil. More tenacious etc etc.
Also, I overheard Reter Williams saying that he was so concerned about the lubrication in a Norton engine, that on a long fast circuit after a "while" at full throttle he would snap the throttle shut the instantly back to full bore. The rationale being to create a depression in the crankcase thus sucking oil into dry spots. Whether there was anything in this, who knows? Sounds like a good theory to me.
cheers
wakeup
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Re: Ludwig creates cam bath tub
Cold startup being the most critical time of all re: lubrication , yes I like this bath idea. Details please.
Cold startup being the most critical time of all re: lubrication , yes I like this bath idea. Details please.
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Re: Ludwig creates cam bath tub
At one time that was very true. If Norton would have stayed with monograde oil in the mid seventies instead of calling for multigrade I suspect there would have been far fewer cam failures.
Mulitigrade oils now have advanced to the point of being every bit as good as mongrade with the added bonus of having viscosity that is not greatly affected by temperature. Jim
At one time that was very true. If Norton would have stayed with monograde oil in the mid seventies instead of calling for multigrade I suspect there would have been far fewer cam failures.
Mulitigrade oils now have advanced to the point of being every bit as good as mongrade with the added bonus of having viscosity that is not greatly affected by temperature. Jim
rvich
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Re: Ludwig creates cam bath tub
Wouldn't that cam bath mostly help on start up? Seems to me that the cam splashing in there once RPMs came up would pretty much empty the puddle. Why not just rig up a manual priming pump that dumped oil into the rocker boxes before starting the bike? It has probably been done by somebody.
Russ
Wouldn't that cam bath mostly help on start up? Seems to me that the cam splashing in there once RPMs came up would pretty much empty the puddle. Why not just rig up a manual priming pump that dumped oil into the rocker boxes before starting the bike? It has probably been done by somebody.
Russ
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Re: Ludwig creates cam bath tub
Oil only protects against high pressure sliding wear when there is enough surface speed to cause the lifter to hydroplane and lift off the cam. The purpose of ZDDP is to provide protection at slow speed when there is not enough speed or oil to separate the parts.
Due to the small diameter of a Norton cam there is not enough surface speed to hydroplane the lifter until at least 12 to 15 hundred RPM [it depends on the valve springs and ramp rate] even if the cam is immersed in oil. The actual separation from hydroplaning is very small. It doesn't take much oil to raise the lifter off of the cam by a few hundred thousandths of an inch once the speed is adequate.
With a new cam it take a lot more RPM's than 1500 due to the fact that until the parts are mated the actual contact area is very small so the lifter will not hydroplane as easily. That is why you need to keep the engine speed up with a new cam. Jim
Oil only protects against high pressure sliding wear when there is enough surface speed to cause the lifter to hydroplane and lift off the cam. The purpose of ZDDP is to provide protection at slow speed when there is not enough speed or oil to separate the parts.
Due to the small diameter of a Norton cam there is not enough surface speed to hydroplane the lifter until at least 12 to 15 hundred RPM [it depends on the valve springs and ramp rate] even if the cam is immersed in oil. The actual separation from hydroplaning is very small. It doesn't take much oil to raise the lifter off of the cam by a few hundred thousandths of an inch once the speed is adequate.
With a new cam it take a lot more RPM's than 1500 due to the fact that until the parts are mated the actual contact area is very small so the lifter will not hydroplane as easily. That is why you need to keep the engine speed up with a new cam. Jim
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Re: Ludwig creates cam bath tub
I've seen quite a few worn out Norton cams, but have yet to see a worn out Triumph cam.
I haven't seen many badly worn Norton cam-followers, but quite a few Triumph ones!
I'm not convinced it's all down to the lubrication - at what point does the oil film fail sufficiently to cause material to be taken off the cam lobe?
Genuinely curious, BTW.
I've seen quite a few worn out Norton cams, but have yet to see a worn out Triumph cam.
I haven't seen many badly worn Norton cam-followers, but quite a few Triumph ones!
I'm not convinced it's all down to the lubrication - at what point does the oil film fail sufficiently to cause material to be taken off the cam lobe?
Genuinely curious, BTW.
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Re: Ludwig creates cam bath tub
I was told that when I first started driving and riding. And I still do it sometimes when been on throttle for long in newer engines. The depression does suck up oil, easily noticed by the puff of smoke when opening the throttle again. Certainly with the Matchless I do it to get the splashes up the bore. So I think that's true.
wakeup said:
I was told that when I first started driving and riding. And I still do it sometimes when been on throttle for long in newer engines. The depression does suck up oil, easily noticed by the puff of smoke when opening the throttle again. Certainly with the Matchless I do it to get the splashes up the bore. So I think that's true.
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Re: Ludwig creates cam bath tub
Throttle cuts at speed only cut fuel heating for that interval and increase vacuum in chambers so the only place oil flow would see the lower pressure to be sucked into would be the intake guides to smoke. Sump oil is still being pumped and thrown up on bores whether on or off power at any rpm. Exhaust valve is always sealed to low pressure in chambers so never sees sucking only pressure of exhaust blast into guides on opening. Power cut might relieve the pinch space in rod shells but at speed should always be surfing in oil pressure, on or off throttle nil influence. So throttle cuts is just for pilot to catch break.
Throttle cuts at speed only cut fuel heating for that interval and increase vacuum in chambers so the only place oil flow would see the lower pressure to be sucked into would be the intake guides to smoke. Sump oil is still being pumped and thrown up on bores whether on or off power at any rpm. Exhaust valve is always sealed to low pressure in chambers so never sees sucking only pressure of exhaust blast into guides on opening. Power cut might relieve the pinch space in rod shells but at speed should always be surfing in oil pressure, on or off throttle nil influence. So throttle cuts is just for pilot to catch break.
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Re: Ludwig creates cam bath tub
When I have been running a Norton on the dyno with pressure sensors on the crankcase I have seen that when you release the throttle quickly at high speed the crankcase pressure rapidly rises for a moment.
This happens because the lower cylinder pressure can no longer keep the rings expanded against the bore so the rings will flutter and leak. Blowby increases dramatically until the rpm drops enough that the rings stop fluttering and make a seal. This also allows oil to leak past the rings and into the combustion chamber which accounts for the puff of smoke.
The thicker and heavier the ring -the lower the rpm where the rings will flutter. The higher the cylinder pressure -the more rpm's required to cause flutter.
With a sensor on the crankcase you can see precisely when the rings break seal as the volume of blowby increases sharply. Jim
When I have been running a Norton on the dyno with pressure sensors on the crankcase I have seen that when you release the throttle quickly at high speed the crankcase pressure rapidly rises for a moment.
This happens because the lower cylinder pressure can no longer keep the rings expanded against the bore so the rings will flutter and leak. Blowby increases dramatically until the rpm drops enough that the rings stop fluttering and make a seal. This also allows oil to leak past the rings and into the combustion chamber which accounts for the puff of smoke.
The thicker and heavier the ring -the lower the rpm where the rings will flutter. The higher the cylinder pressure -the more rpm's required to cause flutter.
With a sensor on the crankcase you can see precisely when the rings break seal as the volume of blowby increases sharply. Jim
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Re: Ludwig creates cam bath tub
Educational details Jim to let whiff through our minds chopping throttle to give the poor things a break. Would be extra educational to monitor with and w/o an efficient PCV. I think knock sensor headset might pick this flutter up. I don't think drive trains like the practice either.
Educational details Jim to let whiff through our minds chopping throttle to give the poor things a break. Would be extra educational to monitor with and w/o an efficient PCV. I think knock sensor headset might pick this flutter up. I don't think drive trains like the practice either.
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