Looking for spark/help with power-arc

cjandme · May 10, 2012

I've been able to spend a little more time working on my barn find, and now have lights but no spark. The other day I was ordering an exhaust clamp for the balance pipe and was on the phone with Roger over at RGM. While he was looking up part numbers, I mentioned my problem and he suggested I run a wire from the battery straight to the coils, excellent idea which I thanked him for. Anyway now that I'm ready to do it, my question is: will I need to go from the negative side of the battery to each negative side of the coils ( bike is still a positive ground stock system). I had some corrosion issues with the kill switch that I addressed, but still no spark. I have new plugs and wires and cleaned the points with some sand paper. I'm wanting to switch to an electronic system, but really wanted to try and get it going before tearing it down too far.

A dremel tool with a small wire brush wheel, needle nosed pliers, a flat blade screw driver and a scribe helped to clean the kill switch up ( will probably ditch the whole brake master cylinder, throttle & switch gear cluster in favor of a newer one). But in the mean time, I"m gona have to use this one.

Hobot · May 10, 2012

Re: Looking for that spark

OMG cj, its those like you that collect paint chips and re-disolve to stay original. Nature done taken those poor switches apart for you. In our bike the neg is like the positive, so yes neg bat. to neg coil terminal the earth the +, which is what the points do. Suspect bad condensers, which about any off the shelf size that fits pretty much covers the capasitance of contact breakers for cars to chain saws. Coils could be shorted so got to check that. Something may be shorting to earth in the points themselves. Ballist resistors rare to short or not conductor but going by the corrision seen maybe corrorison impregnated it. While diddling be aware to watch for whips of smoke before a melt down or fire. You can search online for points ignition diagnosis to get clearer check list to go down. Start from scratch and rebuild and re-tune the points and coils then diddle the timing, after you get spark of course. Must always start with new plugs as for some reason my Nortons tended to kill them when ignition issue arose that fouled them I assume.

L.A.B. · May 11, 2012

Re: Looking for that spark

cjandme said:
will I need to go from the negative side of the battery to each negative side of the coils ( bike is still a positive ground stock system).

Yes, but the coils are 6V and normally supplied via the ballast resistor unless the starter motor is operating (points ignition), therefore I suggest you try running the 12V supply from battery negative to the white/yellow [WY] side of the ballast resistor first.

If that does not result in power getting to the coils (blown ballast resistor?) then try connecting the temporary wire to the coils side of the ballast (white/purple [WP]). Sending 12V to the 6V coils for a short period is unlikely to damage them, but it should only be regarded as a temporary measure. There are two power circuits to the coils, one from the ignition and kill switch to the ballast resistor, and another [WP] wire that feeds 12V directly from the starter solenoid to the coils(-) when the starter is operating.

Hobot · May 11, 2012

Re: Looking for that spark

OH yeah, these Commandos are real men/womens motocycles, a test of will power and thinking outside the box. Just flashed back on one of my mystery no spark events that nothing found wrong in ignition, but turned out a ground strap in tail light was shorting voltage - intermittently at first, then died on way to driveway with bumps alerting me to check outside the ignition supply. I'm collecting trashed Automatic Advance Units, to some day have machinist recover a batch of em to share with the purists.

cjandme · May 11, 2012

Re: Looking for that spark

Thank you both for the input. hobot I'll send you my AAU when I switch to EI.
L.A.B copy " try running the 12V supply from battery negative to the white/yellow [WY] side of the ballast resistor first." will do. Also will see about changing out the condenser too if I can match one from autozone, hobot. I forgot to mention that there are two wires with spade connectors just dangling in the battery compartment and not connected to anything---one is white/red and one is white/purple. Thanks again guys, Cj

L.A.B. · May 11, 2012

Re: Looking for that spark

cjandme said:
I forgot to mention that there are two wires with spade connectors just dangling in the battery compartment and not connected to anything---one is white/red and one is white/purple.

The white/red [WR] and white/purple [WP] wires connect to the starter solenoid (refer to your wiring diagram), the white/purple wire is the one I mentioned earlier that feeds full battery voltage directly to the coils while the starter motor is turning (points ign. only).

Connect WR to the solenoid "S" terminal, and WP to "I" (assuming the solenoid is there?

)

cjandme · May 11, 2012

Re: Looking for that spark

I was looking all over the schematics and didn't see the w/p wire but I suppose it doesn't matter as the PO removed the starter anyway. thx L.A.B ..... After looking at the schematics a little more closely, the w/p wire was right there- if it had been a snake it would have bit me.

Hobot · May 11, 2012

Re: Looking for that spark

Hot dog cj, when ever we get a-round-to-it. I detest fumble bumble wiring clutter and Norton is the best model of excess clutter. Once ya get voltage to show up at the points they should mostly read 6v's each side. My buddy said it was a constant hassle after a couple decade of points and Amals, i gave him a Boyer and another friend gave him a Miki carb. Now he says its so much less effort and mystery to just get on and ride. i've been that route in spade and it was some of the best and highest times I've had on a motorcycle. Then again about the easiest to start and operate and response for sane thrills and no brainer ordering from the good book, I'm testing myself to keep one as issued, minus the factory pegs as stifles the leans I crave.

cjandme · May 11, 2012

Re: Looking for that spark

Tried running the temp wire to the w/p on the ballast but still no joy.

The day before yesterday I had one of my kids wanting to help me out, so I gave her a wire brush and had her busting some rust. Today I wound up with two of them poking around, so I had my 9 yr old give the wire brush to her younger sister (pictured with me striping a length of wire from an old lamp) and I gave the camera duties to her now.

I think I'm gonna have to throw some money at this since A: I'm a lousy trouble shooter & B: I have a little bit of dough to spend at the moment. hobot I think that you're gonna get the AAU sooner rather than later, as I believe I'm calling Oldbritts tomorrow and ordering Fred's new EI system. Cj

Hobot · May 11, 2012

Re: Looking for that spark

Ugh, slice the Gordian Knot in half as beat a path direct as can to riding the beastie. I'm left tingling for days, half in delight half in fright. I''ve lost like 3 wks trying to figure out my first point system re-do - install - and then a couple more this last spring when the ballist smoked, but not at first of course so took a while. PowerArch in the best ignition i know of. Its what will spark my special long grinding project. Don't get too frustrated on the ride either till new tires put on if current one worn or storage disformed and aged. They have a speed limit in sweepers with plenty of power to rush right into it.

cjandme · May 22, 2012

Re: Looking for that spark

Christmas in May!!! My power-arc ignition system arrived today.

ashman · May 23, 2012

Re: Looking for that spark

Merry Xmas CJ 8)

Ashley

cjandme · Jun 1, 2012

Re: Looking for that spark

Got some time again and started back at it by removing the stock ignition system. I was amazed at how much it weighed so I took it down to the post office and they weighed it in at 4.19 lbs

Then I weighed the new power-arc set up with the front side reflectors and the bracket and all the hardware and it came in at 2.30lbs.

Here's the little bracket that I came up with to mount the reflectors. I painted it later with some old green spray paint that I happened to have in the garage.

I decided to relocate the headsteady spring bracket "back" away from the engine in the forward most holes to make room for the single coil. ( .... the coil's mounting holes were too close together to fit in the frame holes. So I wallowed out the plastic holes so that the bolts could splay out enough to fit the stock frame holes, instead of enlarging the frame & spring bracket holes)......6 to one, half a dozen to the other I suppose.

cjandme · Jun 1, 2012

Re: Looking for that spark

Coil , reflector bracket & head steady spring bracket in place.

Old AAU out & new unit in place...hobot PM me with your address and I'll mail it off to you for your collection as promised.

Now to start connecting it up. Took the headlight off to have better access to the ignition switch, the wiring inside there looks to be in good order. The PO welded some 5/8 inch american standard thread nuts to the headlight shell, it's strong but looks a bit unrefined---hmmm...might just leave it as is.

Was thinking of taking my power from the backside of the igniting switch instead of from the handle bar mounted kill switch.

cjandme · Jun 1, 2012

Re: Looking for that spark

Took everything back off to ensure a good electrical connection for the +12vdc side of the coil, since I thought I'd use one of these headsteady spring hanger bracket bolts to hook up to.

Tried checking for voltage under the igntion or "master" switch, but didn't get a reading on my voltage meter. There is juice there as the lights come on & I get tiny sparks when I touch the probe to the spade connectors, but I must be doing something wrong with the tester because I get no value.

The instructions that came with the power-arc say that if you're going to use the switch to get the juice for the module then get it from the white wire on the bikes wiring harness/ignition switch. However looking at the wiring diagram I have, it looks like the first position on the switch gets it's juice from the alternator and not the battery. Has anyone else done this here at the backside of the switch or should I be looking at a different place to splice into??

speirmoor · Jun 1, 2012

Are you retaining the kill switch?It looks like the rest of your harness is intact so finding the hot wire you need will be easier if you do.I have the same bike as you with starter disconnected and I used the yellow white wire for power that was left after the coils/ballast removal.I taped up the white purple wire

L.A.B. · Jun 2, 2012

Re: Looking for that spark

cjandme said:
However looking at the wiring diagram I have, it looks like the first position on the switch gets it's juice from the alternator and not the battery. Has anyone else done this here at the backside of the switch or should I be looking at a different place to splice into??

Presumably, you are referring to the factory MkIII wiring diagram? There is no direct supply from the alternator to the ignition switch at any key position. The only power supply to the standard master switch is the brown/blue [NU] wire (to terminal 1) from the battery.

cyclegeezer · Jun 2, 2012

One problem is that you have the positive probe on your voltmeter plugged into the Amperage socket on the voltmeter. Plug it into the socket below the one it's currently plugged into and see if you get different results.

batrider · Jun 2, 2012

May have blown the current fuse in the meter doing that. If that meter even has one.

dirtymartini · Jun 2, 2012

batrider said:
May have blown the current fuse in the meter doing that. If that meter even has one.

+1
Looks like a Harbor Freight meter, I doubt it even has a fuse. Try a different meter if you have one.

Looking for spark/help with power-arc

cjandme

Hobot

L.A.B.

Moderator

Hobot

cjandme

L.A.B.

Moderator

cjandme

Hobot

cjandme

Hobot

cjandme

ashman

cjandme

cjandme

cjandme

speirmoor

L.A.B.

Moderator

cyclegeezer

batrider

dirtymartini

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