Liquid or Lean?

BPHORSEGUY · Jan 2, 2015

Now that the new design for the Triumph is out of the bag, we know air cooling is going the way of the dinosaur. As was stated on this forum previously, CARB, EURO 3 and other new specs are making is almost impossible for a new bike to be air cooled. The new Indian Scout and even Harleys are coming out liquid cooled, all retro bikes!

Norton managed to keep an air-cooled design but some new owners ( myself included ) wine about the lean starting and idle circuits, the areas where the EPA tests are toughest ! We then modify the exhaust systems increasing the problem !

Since we are an ingenious bunch we find ways to fiddle with the idle adjustments, use super high end fuels, and in some places re-map to keep the bikes running great!...... But it is coming to an end !

I for one am very glad the Norton is still air cooled, and hate the new "radiators" on retros.

Since I can't ride for a while, I'll just solicit opinions ! :?:

BritTwit · Jan 2, 2015

BPHORSEGUY said:
Now that the new design for the Triumph is out of the bag, we know air cooling is going the way of the dinosaur. As was stated on this forum previously, CARB, EURO 3 and other new specs are making is almost impossible for a new bike to be air cooled. The new Indian Scout and even Harleys are coming out liquid cooled, all retro bikes!

Norton managed to keep an air-cooled design but some new owners ( myself included ) wine about the lean starting and idle circuits, the areas where the EPA tests are toughest ! We then modify the exhaust systems increasing the problem !

Since we are an ingenious bunch we find ways to fiddle with the idle adjustments, use super high end fuels, and in some places re-map to keep the bikes running great!...... But it is coming to an end !

I for one am very glad the Norton is still air cooled, and hate the new "radiators" on retros.

Since I can't ride for a while, I'll just solicit opinions ! :?:

I bought retros because they were designed to have true retro styling, which includes air cooled power plants.
They will remain unique, even more so now that the EU and US regulations appear to be forcing manufacturers toward liquid cooling.
It's an end to a wonderful era in motorcycling with relatively light weight, simple, air cooled machines giving way to technical modernity.
My hope is that Norton, being a very limited manufacturer, will be able to continue manufacturing the 961. They may have an exclusion from the regs due to their very low production volume.

Triumph's new liquid cooled bike will have to successfully be accepted by some customers looking for that classic styling touch, which is very clear in the current 865 Bonneville, and at the same time provide the techical sophistication that some other customers want in modern liquid cool machines. It will be very difficult goal to achieve.

Britfan60 · Jan 3, 2015

Are they really being forced to go water cooled? What about the Bonnies, the Monsters, the Guzzi v7 and why would Honda produce the new CB1100? I hope there will still be at least a niche market for these bikes that remains for us grunts. Nothing against liquid cooled. Keep making them for the high performance oriented, but I'm still loving my low rev air cooled.

Dozer · Jan 3, 2015

I cant see how Moto Guzzi can move forward on WC bikes, their tooling is almost a hundred years old....

BPHORSEGUY · Jan 3, 2015

Dozer said:
I cant see how Moto Guzzi can move forward on WC bikes, their tooling is almost a hundred years old....

Only time will tell?

BritTwit · Jan 3, 2015

Dozer said:
I cant see how Moto Guzzi can move forward on WC bikes, their tooling is almost a hundred years old....

I'm not familiar with either EU or US DOT requirements, but I don't think these agencies would create regs that would put companies producing air cooled designs out of business. I think these companies are just being proactive, and developing the new designs that will be needed to meet future emission regs. Moto Guzzi's financial situation may be it's biggest liability moving into the liquid cooled future. Maybe Honda believes that they can meet the new regulations with their new air cooled retro 4 cylinder. They certainly have considerable technological capability. It would be hard to believe that Honda developed their 1100 knowing that it would not be able to meet the coming new requlations.

Britfan60 · Jan 4, 2015

I guess that's why they all have catalytic converters that we all rip right back out. :mrgreen:

Dozer · Jan 4, 2015

If they really want to ruin our lives they will ban modifications....

BritTwit · Jan 4, 2015

Dozer said:
If they really want to ruin our lives they will ban modifications....

I think the People's Republic of Kalifornia has already done this.
The law there prevents the removal of OEM exhausts on 2013 and new vehicles.
Not sure how fanatical the police are about enforcing this law, but you can see the handwriting on the wall concerning vehicle mods.

Maybe a California based member of the forum can comment on this issue.

BPHORSEGUY · Jan 4, 2015

BritTwit said:
Dozer said:

I cant see how Moto Guzzi can move forward on WC bikes, their tooling is almost a hundred years old....

Click to expand...

Maybe Honda believes that they can meet the new regulations with their new air cooled retro 4 cylinder. They certainly have considerable technological capability. It would be hard to believe that Honda developed their 1100 knowing that it would not be able to meet the coming new requlations.

Usually existing vehicles are grandfathered in! I am taiking about new and upcoming designs!

Britfan60 · Jan 4, 2015

Well....Duc are now making the Monster 821 and 1200 liquid but they are coming out with the 850 Scrambler air cooled twin.

Dozer · Jan 4, 2015

Moto Guzzis upcoming designs Im pretty sure will all be across the frame air/oil cooled v twins, as that's all the factory can produce with the current assembly lines.

I went there 10 years ago, it was like walking into something from Victorian times, I was expecting to see 6 year old boys sweeping the chimneys.

Love Guzzis tho, before I got my 961 I practically lived on my T3. Id hate them to change. Nothing sounds like one of these things on open pipes with the loud button pressed.

Note hammer laying on floor, item no 1 in 70s Guzzi toolkit....

BPHORSEGUY · Jan 4, 2015

So, several here think the OEM's will be able to keep making air cooled design's. I am hoping they are right!

Liquid or Lean?

BPHORSEGUY

BritTwit

Britfan60

Dozer

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BritTwit

Britfan60

Dozer

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