Lesson in making an Intermediate Shaft support tool

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Gday Brian, Yes you're right, in the Norvil catolouge under workshop tools the Commando intermediate spindle support plate lists for 33.42 and the Dominator 46.13. Still pricey at that, I think I could make one like Ludwigs using the cover as a temp plate.
FOXY
 
G'day to you Foxy, how are ye mate?

Yep, costly, and I may have missed the drift of the thread. Didn't mean to divert business from better suppliers. I bought one from Norvil and it's sitting in the toolbox waiting for winter. Better/cheaper alternatives always welcome!

Folks in the Boston area, I do lend tools (and opinions, which may make buying yer own a bargain!).
 
I would have thought a single piece of (3/8"-1/2"?) flat steel or alloy plate drilled for the spindle, plus three or four more holes for mounting it to the case with three or four spacers between the case and plate would be a simpler way of doing it?
 
ludwig said:
That would of course be the simlpest way if you can drill precise enough.
Click to expand...

I don't see that the clamping holes would necessarily need to that accurately positioned if the spacers were reasonably broad and the screws torqued sufficiently, and the timing cover could be used as a template after the spindle hole had been drilled in the plate?



ludwig said:
but you still would have to do a lot of cutting to get sufficient access .
Click to expand...

No, I wouldn't think so? A simple rectangular plate ought to do it, although maybe a couple of extra clearance holes would be required, probably one for the oil pump worm nut, and maybe one for the upper oil pump stud (if required)?

Maybe something like this? I'm not sure if the timing chain adjuster studs would clash with the plate or not but again holes could be drilled, or the plate cut away?
Lesson in making an Intermediate Shaft support tool
 
LAB, I think your idea is sound. In fact I think you could put a smear of vasoline on the the shaft and use JB Weld to get the bore correct on the shaft. The same approach could be used on the screws thus allowing the holes to be drilled oversize for initial fitting. You could even stretch plastic wrap over the face to protect the timing chain, etc from any globs or spray it down with something like PAM. This would make the job possible for anybody who had access to a drill motor. It wouldn't be the minimalist art of Ludwig's tool, but I think it would get the job done.
 
Keep in mind the screw holes need to do more than hold the cover "on". The 3 screws need to take the sideways pressure off the spindle when torquing or un torquing the nuts/pump drive which can seize on over time. One nice thing about the cutaway covers is they utilize the locating dowels that are there already.
 
Rip is right. I have an old cover I cut and used for years.It is more stable and you can see the chains tighten or loosen ( 68 fastback ) when you put it on.The dowels really make a difference in locating. I am a tool and diemaker by trade and applaude all of you for trying to duplicate the cover,but is easier to find an old one and cut it up.Using it between friends helps. I lend mine out to my norton buddies in my area once in awhile and the beer helps to pay for the initial cost.
Bruce
 
bchessell said:
Rip is right. I have an old cover I cut and used for years.It is more stable and you can see the chains tighten or loosen ( 68 fastback ) when you put it on.The dowels really make a difference in locating.
Bruce
Click to expand...

Based on this observation, not only should you use the tool for torquing the cam nut, but adjusting the chain as well! So if I understand correctly you are saying that the intermediate shaft is not properly located without the cover in place?
Thus it would be impossible to accurately manufacture the tool unless the cover was used for the pattern, rather than the timing chest? Guess I will be buying the Norvil tool after all.
Russ
 
The main reason for the cover has always been to adjust the cam chain every 5000 miles.When I worked at a norton shop one summer we used the cover a lot specifically for that purpose. Some shafts were loose and the cover supports the shaft in its proper position when you run the cam chain around and tighten it.Sometimes when the cover is removed the small amount with no support shows up in a loose cam chain.That is what we all use mine for mainly.I have a 68 as well as a 71 and have built up and sold many commandos.I have always tightened up the cam nut with the right diameter rod through the connecting rods onto the crankcase faces when I am building them up.Pistons are off at that point.
Bruce
 
just a couple of things, quickly. So the norvil tool for 33.00 is sufficient enough correct? and it appears there is either a high demand on available ebay covers from this thread or they are getting hard to come by because the one on ebay now is at 137.00 bucks and climbing. That isn't very economical to make a tool out of.
 
bchessell said:
Rip is right. I have an old cover I cut and used for years.It is more stable and you can see the chains tighten or loosen ( 68 fastback ) when you put it on.The dowels really make a difference in locating. I am a tool and diemaker by trade and applaude all of you for trying to duplicate the cover,but is easier to find an old one and cut it up.Using it between friends helps. I lend mine out to my norton buddies in my area once in awhile and the beer helps to pay for the initial cost.
Bruce
Click to expand...

As far as I can see with or without the cover removed, the shaft we're trying to keep located doesn't move significantly or the cover would never go back on so the tool can reduce down to something quite simple.
2 parts , a piece that that locates onto the timing chest with clearance hole and for the shaft and a circle of threaded holes to fix the bush in position, and bush holder retained by screws with clearance holes to give a bit of float. Bolt the first part on and drop the bush holder over the shaft and screw it down. It all self locates.
 
I don't think norvil would make a tool if it would not locate properly. I just happened to have an old cover which was damaged. I had in the past ( early 70's) did the chain adjustment without a tool,just making sure I never set the chain too tight.My shaft was tight with no movement with an indicator .As well I bought the bike new.It was when I worked at the shop you would see atlas and commandos come in with loose fitting intermediate shafts .That is when the cover is really needed for the chain.
Bruce
 
Just for the record here's the piece I cut out of my cover. It looks like the bob weights flew off and jammed up cutting a 3/16th" trough inside the points area. You can see the exposed points plate locating threads there. I'm with the majority here and don't advocate cutting up a useable timing cover for the sake of a tool.

Lesson in making an Intermediate Shaft support tool
 
ludwig said:
RennieK said:
.. The 3 screws need to take the sideways pressure off the spindle when torquing or un torquing the nuts/pump drive which can seize on over time..
Click to expand...
Tightening or untightening the crankshaft worm nut should not put any extra stress on the intermediate shaft .
Only the camshaft nut can do that .
Click to expand...
Seems to me the worm nut was seized on so tight it felt like 80lbs to break it loose and I was holding the resistance on the cam nut rather than pinning the crank.
 
As much as manual and everyone is so cautious to protect
intermediate shaft, I'd guess 99% of Commando ever diddled
there is done sans any extra support, just not jerking on
cam nut and blocking the chain from turning.
I've had cut cover for most a decade but I've never used it
on a hand ful of times into TS drive.
So far so goodie.
Again these are Brit factory items so who knows whose
got good shaft fit to begin with and whose is sloppy
and needs protecting.

Anywho its fun to seek perfection for peace of mind with full
tool kit involved.

hobot
 
ludwig said:
RennieK said:
.. I was holding the resistance on the cam nut rather than pinning the crank.
Click to expand...
Didn't you hear the shaft scream : " Please Rip , don't do that to me .!! " ..?
In any civilised country , cruelty against intermediate shafts is punishable with prison , no ?
Click to expand...
There were out cries for sure but this seemed like the lesser of all evils.
1st. was the aluminum tunnel of the crank case where my steel punch abutted from the crank balance hole. Stop Stop you're hurting! I'm going to break! the crank case cried.
2nd. were the con rods screaming "you're twisting us out of alignment! you're twisting us!" sure enough when I checked the steel pin I had passing through the small ends was resting on the outer edge of the timing side casing which is a good 1/8th." higher than the barrels' mating surface causing the full load of force to press against the closest edge of the small end creating a twisting motion on the rods. This left no options your honor, but I did implement my trusty T/C pinion protection tool to ease the torment. Absolutely no harm was intended your honor. : )
 
Well I know there is able, but is there a machinist willing to make a batch of these for those of us that do not have a machine shop available. I'd gladly pay the price for a nice tool and I'm sure there are others. I really don't want to cut up a good cover.
 
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