Layshaft: Balls or rollers

Foxy · Jul 13, 2012

However the shims need to be placed under the kickstart stops in the inner case and then the kickstart shaft inserted through the shims and the case. The reason for this is that the O.D. of the shims are too large to slip by the kickstart stops. This is not a problem since I always put the kickstart shaft into the inner case before installing the inner case to the gearbox shell and turn the shaft to the returned position closing the pawl!

Don't forget this as it makes the job so easy!

Foxy · Jul 13, 2012

deleted

jaydee75 · Jul 13, 2012

Perfect, couldn't be clearer.
Thanks
JD

rwalker28 · Jul 13, 2012

comnoz said:
Actually the bronze bushing on the kicker end of the layshaft has a higher load capacity than a ball or roller bearing. However it will not live with miss-alignment or poor lube.

Jim

Thank you Jim (and sorry to original poster for hijacking the thread, but I think this fits)

Indeed the kicker side bushes provide good support to the layshaft, however, the kick shaft is supported in the inner cover bushing. The inner cover bushing looks like steel to me, as is the kicker shaft. So your point of alignment is well taken, my inner cover bushing in my basket case is blue to almost black, there must have been serious rubbing going on there. But does this mean the drive side layshaft bearing keeps the layshaft straight? Seems like the layshaft is almost cantilevered by the drive side bearing, but I can't think that is true. I am still confused, thanks for the help.

rvich · Jul 13, 2012

L.A.B. said:
jaydee75 said:

where exactly do the shims go?

Click to expand...

jaydee75 said:

And should I order front or rear isolastic shims.

Click to expand...

Rear

See text: http://www.oldbritts.com/gearbox_a.html

My memory is that I ended up putting in .035, so order a selection. They don't cost much.

Russ

Foxy · Jul 14, 2012

deleted

Decemberist · Jul 14, 2012

Is there a way to tell if you have a roller or ball layshaft bearing without ripping the entire gearbox apart?

Brooking 850 · Jul 14, 2012

Yes if you have a record or wriiten/oral history from previous owners or service guys, otherwise no!!!
Regards Mike

Torontonian · Jul 14, 2012

Yes to logbooking all work with dates and even prices.

B+Bogus · Jul 15, 2012

I put a roller in mine and shimmed it per LAB's photo.
A year down the line I noticed increased end-float, so re-shimmed it.
40 thou of shims means the kickstart is hard against the outer cover if I want to get the clamp bolt in, and I can only just get the thing to fit :roll:
My beloved RGM T160 type kickstart will no longer fit.

The correct way would be to shim behind the outer race, buth there's still no positive location.

Maybe my problem is unique to me... it wouldn't be the first time

Starting to feel a bit like a lash-up - next box will have a Mick Hemmings ballrace in it.

Hobot · Jul 15, 2012

I put a roller in mine and shimmed it per LAB's photo.
A year down the line I noticed increased end-float, so re-shimmed it.
40 thou of shims means the kickstart is hard against the outer cover if I want to get the clamp bolt in, and I can only just get the thing to fit :roll:
My beloved RGM T160 type kickstart will no longer fit.

The correct way would be to shim behind the outer race, buth there's still no positive location.

Maybe my problem is unique to me... it wouldn't be the first time

Starting to feel a bit like a lash-up - next box will have a Mick Hemmings ballrace in it.

Say what> B+? Ball bearing that fits tight in bore and on shaft tends to hold the shaft play fixed. Rollers allow shaft to shift. So what did the roller have to do with more end play, where did you re-shim that caused layshaft to foul outer cover? If the roller let the layshaft shifting wear off some clearance, then why would correct shim cause fouling? Because you put shims in wrong place? I do see old school wisdom to lock lay shaft in place, but can't get their failure mode out of my head from Jim's description. But a good ball is going long out last the bushes, so logical enough it'll never get to failure mode unknowingly. Gotta set it right and get the RGM kicker back on and appreciate the insight of its value. The cascades of mood swings on about any item in a Commando is soap opera serial material.

CanukNortonNut · Jul 15, 2012

QUOTE " One reason I prefer a roller to a ball bearing is if it wears out and gets rough and you ignore the noise and keep riding , it will destroy the cage just like a ball bearing. But due to the close spacing of the rollers it is unlikely to lock up suddenly like a ball bearing does if the cage goes away. The balls in a ball bearing must be spaced farther apart to allow for assembly so if the cage comes apart the balls will all go to one side and lock the bearing."

Either bearing is adequate however as long as you use a HD ball bearing. Jim[/quote]

Well said! 8)
I am with you there Jim.
CNN

B+Bogus · Jul 16, 2012

hobot said:
Say what> B+? Ball bearing that fits tight in bore and on shaft tends to hold the shaft play fixed. Rollers allow shaft to shift. So what did the roller have to do with more end play, where did you re-shim that caused layshaft to foul outer cover? If the roller let the layshaft shifting wear off some clearance, then why would correct shim cause fouling? Because you put shims in wrong place? I do see old school wisdom to lock lay shaft in place, but can't get their failure mode out of my head from Jim's description. But a good ball is going long out last the bushes, so logical enough it'll never get to failure mode unknowingly. Gotta set it right and get the RGM kicker back on and appreciate the insight of its value. The cascades of mood swings on about any item in a Commando is soap opera serial material.

Steve,

The kickstart shaft is the issue on mine:
I shimmed betweek the kickstart shaft and the outer cover (as per LAB's photo), effectively pulling it inside, and hence reducing the available area to clamp the kicker shaft to - it's now wobbling about on the splines 'cause it hasn't got enough to clamp on to.
I'm wondering if the layshaft had been butting up against a protruding kickstart/layshaft shaft bush, which has subsequently worn or migrated back into the shaft, hence the need to re-shim.
It can wait until winter to investigate, but there's something not quite right in my gearbox!

kevbo82 · Jul 16, 2012

im rebuilding mine now, just a once or twice a week rider is the plan, i called my local bearing place and they got the mick hemmings suggested fag bearing with the polyamide cage from the fag warehouse in tenn for $21. I think that will be JUST FINE for a street bike.

B+Bogus · Jul 16, 2012

kevbo82 said:
im rebuilding mine now, just a once or twice a week rider is the plan, i called my local bearing place and they got the mick hemmings suggested fag bearing with the polyamide cage from the fag warehouse in tenn for $21. I think that will be JUST FINE for a street bike.

That's the one - do you have the FAG number?

lbridges · Jul 16, 2012

kevbo82 said:
im rebuilding mine now, just a once or twice a week rider is the plan, i called my local bearing place and they got the mick hemmings suggested fag bearing with the polyamide cage from the fag warehouse in tenn for $21. I think that will be JUST FINE for a street bike.

An incredibly cheap price - make sure it is the recommended one.

Should be FAG 6203 TB.P63 C3

DogT · Jul 16, 2012

Sounds cheap to me too. It may not be a C3, or it may not even be rated. Better check. I could never find the C rated ones at the auto stores.

Dave
69S

L.A.B. · Jul 16, 2012

DogT said:
Sounds cheap to me too. It may not be a C3, or it may not even be rated. Better check. I could never find the C rated ones at the auto stores.

I don't think the one I fitted, supplied by Mick Hemmings, was C3.

C3 wasn't on the box, and I don't recall seeing any "C3" marking on the bearing?

The replacement roller is often specified as C3.

lbridges · Jul 16, 2012

I offered that nomenclature (the C3 designation) as that's what was listed at this site (where I purchased my bearing). However, I think in grown up bearing talk the C3 may be redundant with the "3" in P63..

pete.v · Jul 16, 2012

DogT said:
Sounds cheap to me too. It may not be a C3, or it may not even be rated. Better check. I could never find the C rated ones at the auto stores.

Dave
69S

Here is a list of just the FAG offered from this company that i use locally. None are particularly expensive except the angular contact. I used the 6203TVH.C3. $9.97
Sorry, the link appears to regenerate and not show what I intended.
Their site is Applied.com

Layshaft: Balls or rollers

Foxy

Foxy

jaydee75

rwalker28

rvich

Foxy

Decemberist

Brooking 850

Torontonian

B+Bogus

Hobot

CanukNortonNut

B+Bogus

kevbo82

B+Bogus

lbridges

DogT

L.A.B.

Moderator

lbridges

pete.v

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