Land speed record links

What are the links to land speed records, displacement measuring, rules, regulations etc for Lake Mirage (& Bonneville)? 750 pushrod gas, no streamlining.
thanks
Jim

Hi Jim, don't where the links are but I received an email yesterday from the guy who built my motor that he just returned from Bonneville running a 873cc Norton in the 1000cc altered pushrod
fuel class. He TIED the world record speed at 155.722 mph. Norton ran with a 10.7 to 1 compression ratio and of course with 125cc less than the class allowed in size.
He said they were the David against the Goliath and were very disappointed they could not outright claim the record. He WILL be back he says.
Johh

highdesert said:

Hi Jim, don't where the links are but I received an email yesterday from the guy who built my motor that he just returned from Bonneville running a 873cc Norton in the 1000cc altered pushrod
fuel class. He TIED the world record speed at 155.722 mph. Norton ran with a 10.7 to 1 compression ratio and of course with 125cc less than the class allowed in size.
He said they were the David against the Goliath and were very disappointed they could not outright claim the record. He WILL be back he says.
Johh

Click to expand...

That was Fred Eiker riding the ex-Commonwealth Racing bike. It's a Caffrey (Seely style) frame with a Commando engine with Nourish one-piece crank, Crower titanium rods, short stroke head modified to a bathtub combustion chamber, and lots of other trick stuff. Originally built as a road racer for Martin Adams, but only raced a few times. I rebuilt the engine for Martin once, and eventually bought the bike from him. I later sold it to Fred, an ex-Norton racer and long time friend. He eventually decided to take it to Bonneville, and hooked up with Jim Mosher, well known Indian engine guru, who made some more mods to the engine. They ran it on gas at first, then added nitrous oxide last year. This year they bumped up the nitrous a bit, along with some other changes, and managed the 155 number, to matche the current class record, held by a Harley. The bike definitely has the potential to run above the record. They had some electircal problems this year, and only got them sorted out in time for a good run on Saturday, the last day of the meet. They'll be back next year with more changed (and a bigger nitrous bottle!), and I'm confident they'll go even faster.

This is the bike as orginally raced at Daytona in 1987.



This is as Fred raced it at Bonneville in 2008



And this is as he raced it at Bonneville in 2009



Fred is sending me a picture from this year, and I'll scan it and post it when I get it.

Rest assured that he was careful to keep everything so he could restore it to the originaI configuration later.

Ken

jseng1 said:

What are the links to land speed records, displacement measuring, rules, regulations etc for Lake Mirage (& Bonneville)? 750 pushrod gas, no streamlining.
thanks
Jim

Click to expand...

Jim,

you can find all the SCTA rules and records at http://www.scta-bni.org, and all the AMA rules and records at http://www.speedtrialsbybub.com/2010_event/r&r10.html.

The classes you are looking at for a conventional, unstreamlined, 750 pushrod bike are the 750 M-PG or 750 A-PG classes. The M class is for modified production bikes, and the A class is for special construction bikes. At El Mirage they don't run the M classes, so you have to run the M bike in the A class. For classes with no records at El Mirage, there are minimums set that you have to exceed for a new record. The minimum for the 750 A-PG class is 134 mph. I ran my roadracer at El MIrage back in 2000, but had some electrical problems, and the best I did was 123 mph. The same bike later ran 131 mph at Bonneville, but I never got back to El Mirage to try again. This is a shot of me on the bike at El Mirage.



The current SCTA record at Bonneville for 750 M-PG is 137 mph, held by a Guzzi. The current AMA record for the same class, set at the BUB Bonneville meet, is 159 mph, held by a very fast Triumph triple.

Ken

Do it Jim. Make the pilgrimage. See the curve of the earth. Put zinc oxide on the underside of your chin, ears, and nose. NEED a full circle hat and sunglasses. For a gear head, Bonneville is Mecca.

159mph is very fast for a PG 750 (Triumph triple)

Which class was it in?

Which class would a featherbed run in. I'm not interested in streamlining.

Great to hear about my old friend and competitor Fred Eiker. He must be tweaked but frustrated - tying the record.

I'm not sure I'm going to go for a record yet - but so far my medium tuned street bike does 125 at 3/4 throttle sitting upright. Found this out when dialing in the flatlside carbs at partial throttle. - trying to slow it down by sitting upright. Didn't realize till later how fast it was going. An all out motor should do 135 possibly 140.

Jim

I would say that 159 is gonna take a bit over 100 hp with no fairing, maybe something like 120hp. maybe more.

jseng1 said:

159mph is very fast for a PG 750 (Triumph triple)

Which class was it in?

Which class would a featherbed run in. I'm not interested in streamlining.

Great to hear about my old friend and competitor Fred Eiker. He must be tweaked but frustrated - tying the record.

I'm not sure I'm going to go for a record yet - but so far my medium tuned street bike does 125 at 3/4 throttle sitting upright. Found this out when dialing in the flatlside carbs at partial throttle. - trying to slow it down by sitting upright. Didn't realize till later how fast it was going. An all out motor should do 135 possibly 140.

Jim

Click to expand...

Jim,

the AMA record I quoted is 159.903 mph in the 750 M-PG class. That's the unstreamlined 750 cc modified pushrod gas class. The same class a featherbed with a 750 Norton would usually run in. The bike with the record is Tom Mellor's highly tuned 750 Triumph triple. With the fairing on, it also holds the 750 MPS-PG (that's modified partially streamlined pushrod gas) at 180.317 mph. Tom has developed a very sophisticated fairing and seat, that are very aerodynamic, but still meet the MPS rules.

You'll find that your street bike will run significantly slower at Bonneville than it will on pavement at sea level. My featherbed racer was 10 mph slower at Bonneville than at Daytona. The elevation makes a significant difference in performance, and unless the salt is perfect the year you go, you also lose something to tire slip.

Stilll, it's an experience you shouldn't miss. It's a whole different world from road racing. Go once, and you'll be hooked.

Ken

Tom's triple is the one in Canada? The one with the beautiful grey fairing still exposing the rider.

I don't see a Norton 750 on gas getting up to 159mph.

You're saying Tom did 159mph without a fairing? Thats amazing.

If it takes 100hp to get to 160mph without fairing that means Toms 750 triple was putting out 33+ hp per cylinder. That means a 500 triumph twin could put out 66+ hp - since when?

jseng1 said:

Tom's triple is the one in Canada? The one with the beautiful grey fairing still exposing the rider.

I don't see a Norton 750 on gas getting up to 159mph.

You're saying Tom did 159mph without a fairing? Thats amazing.

If it takes 100hp to get to 160mph without fairing that means Toms 750 triple was putting out 33+ hp per cylinder. That means a 500 triumph twin could put out 66+ hp - since when?

Click to expand...

Yes, Tom's bike is the one from Canada. His tow vehicle is a 1950 Rolls Royce, British all the way. And yes, he ran 159.903 mph without a fairing. However, the rear part of the bike is still very streamlined, with the custom aerodynamic tail section. It makes 82 rear wheel horsepower.

Tom used to road race a triple. I remember being really impressed by his choice of tow vehicle when I first encountered him at an AHRMA race at Daytona.

Lots of pics and info here

http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/motor ... -T150.aspx

Ken

I know Tom well. He gives out ideas and information very freely. I think his bike when it was a 750 was putting out about 80 HP. He revs it to about 10,000 RPM and the compression ratio is about 14 to 1. That is what he told me. Even though he did take the frontal streamlining off they let him leave the rear part of his shell on as well as his rear wheel streamlining. He also had a very streamlined front hub. Tom is not that big either, and his bike is built low. That must be how much power it takes. He uses narrow tires for less resistance. He pays much more attention to these details than almost anyone else.

This year his engine was bored and stroked to 1000cc or 980 or something like that. He had trouble with the cylinder studs. I think he has about 100 HP now.

One of the most amazing Bonneville records in my opinion is Marty Dickersons record on a Vincent Rapide 1000 with 8:1 compression ratio running on pump gas. I think he went 149 mph. I don't think that bike could have had much more than 65 HP. At that time they were still alowed to ride lying down on the bike. The narrow compact shape of the Vin must have helped a lot.

Nigel

Just a couple of pictures of the bike and car, It was a true treat to talk to him and his wife. They are both the kindest people and were very friendly, It really impressed me that they came as far as they did with the Rolls and bike in tow. You just don't see these type of things very often on the highways, true rolling class all the way inside and out. They must be living the dream, I don't even think my tiny mind could think something like this up. LOL LOL.

tricatcent said:

Even though he did take the frontal streamlining off they let him leave the rear part of his shell on as well as his rear wheel streamlining. He also had a very streamlined front hub. Tom is not that big either, and his bike is built low. He uses narrow tires for less resistance.
Nigel

Click to expand...

His streamlining is gorgeous. I'm surprised they let him run with that tail section & rear wheel. Norton short strokes can make 80+ hp but coming up with that streamlining (in un-streamlined class mind you) would be a problem. A bare frame featherbed couldn't touch it aerodynamically.

So there ya go, a good many records are held by getting away with some cheating.
Still world class impressive power from old Brit push rod. This post and what I saw happen at Barber's makes my question the power pecking order of Norton vs Triumph. I know I'm going to cheat like crazy to get serious power in Ms Peel.
But wonder if same cheating applied to Triumph would deliver even more.
My P!! was marked for 9,000 rpm, so even that ain't so impressive anymore.

I've seen the Full Aerodynamics of rider on a '71 Commando and can tell you that the air split by front of bike slaps back hard and turbulent by mid bike and rear tire whose spining spokes trash the air back out in turmoil as the front of tire spiits it outward like a boat wake to add to the turbulence. Exhaust plume fills in some the expanding turbulence if aimed slightly up and to center of bike plume. The graphics on Tony Fole's site and others is pretty accurate for the over all picture. Rollie had a vertical plate of wood affixed to rear mudguard he could grip with legs to keep the wind from bashing them side to side.

Well said Hobot, In a lot of cases it's the way the air goes back together at the rear of the bike that makes the biggest difference. In nature a liquid rain drop makes some of the best aerodynamics, But if you were to look at it you would think it would be best to sharpen the nose too. I'm not really sure how the bike would be considered naked though with the tail section and the rear rim covered, Here's a picture of the bike my brother has riden naked up to almost 170 mph. He said he likes the other bike with the full fairing much better even though he has gone 217.9 on it.

Yes so if I was to gear for 160 mph, what type of saddle bags would world for Peel?

hobot said:

Yes so if I was to gear for 160 mph, what type of saddle bags would world for Peel?

Click to expand...

Streamlined ones, fitted with nitrous bottles.

Ken

From the photos it looks like Ken, Fred & Tom have gone to ridgid rear suspension. It appears the R shocks have been replaced with solid links.

Can you guys confirm that?

Mea culpa. I think I've mislead you all a bit. Before we get too carried away with the cheating accusations, I need to backtrack a little. I said Tom ran with an aerodynamic tail section, but I was probably mistaken. The rules do not allow any streamlining in the open (unstreamlined) class, including the tail section. I doubt if Tom would have been able to run in the open class with the tail section shown in the pictures. I haven't been able to find any pictures of his bike from the runs where he set the record at 159.903 mph, but I'm pretty sure it did not have the same streamlined tail section that he used with the full fairing. My apologies for misleading anyone. If anyone on the forum who knows Tom could check this out, I'm sure we'd all like to know the real facts.

Ken

jseng1 said:

From the photos it looks like Ken, Fred & Tom have gone to ridgid rear suspension. It appears the R shocks have been replaced with solid links.

Can you guys confirm that?

Click to expand...

Sharp eyes, Jim. Yes, I did run solid rear links at El Mirage, and for my last runs at Bonneville in 2009. I was trying to keep the bike as low as possible, but still meet the rule that says the top of the rear tire has to be below the seat level. When I ran at Bonneville the first time, in 2001, I still had the Works rear shocks, shown in this picture



Don't be confused by the 750MPS-PF designation on the number plate. We ran in the partially streamlined fuel class just to have another class to run. Our streamlining consisted of a front number plate! We were running the same race gas we used for the gas class record, but removed the seals on the gas tank, which put us in the fuel class. When you run in the gas classes, you have to use one of the race gas grades available at the course, and the fuel station seals the tank cap to ensure you don't change to an enhanced furel. If you don't have the seals, you have to run the fuel class. I did manage to set a record in the class, but that was only because there was no existing one. It lasted a couple years, until it was bumped up by a more serious bike.

FWIW, I went faster with the shocks than I did with the solid links, but that was more likely due to the salt conditions than the choice of rear suspension. When we built the streamliner, we decided to go with a sprung rear, and had Works do a special shock for us. We thought it might be better for traction than the solid links. A lot of bikes built just for Bonneville still use solid rear mounts, and a lot use shocks and springs. I don't really know which is best, but I plan to run shocks on any future Bonneville efforts.

The pictures I posted earlier also show that Fred started out with rear shocks on his first trip to the salt, and then changed to solid links for the next year. I haven't talked to him about it, so I don't know his reasons for the change. The most likely reason is to lower the bike as much as possible.

Ken