John Tickle brake springs
- Thread starter wilkey113
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If the Tickle brake has more self-servo you might have a problem. If the brake stays on after braking, you can end up getting steered off the road. When the brake drags the steering on most bikes becomes more stable because the front tends to stay down. If you try it and you find it difficult to get around corners, that might be the problem.
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So brakes stay on due to servo action do they? I suspect only when some idiot forgets to fit the springs that pull them off and fail to champher the leading edge of the friction material. Never ever had it happen. Have had them fail to slow me down a few times but only because the drum was glowing and had expanded to a larger diameter than the friction material...it was a common problem at times in those days of youth. The later progression to a 200mm 4 leading shoe Gri Mi Ca front brake only improved things initially..... I think there must be a law that applies to brakes..the better the brake the harder and later you use it and eventually you end up with the initial problem of fade occuring in exactly the same places....Clearly my Gri Mi Ca hub needed some cooling fins shrinking on to aid heat dissapation although how one would ever shrink them on is beyond me and I bet even beyond Tommy Mortimer who used to do it for Francis Beart and other tuners of the era....!! But they did look pretty on G50 / 7R hubs etc.
wilkey113
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I've had the entire brake and hub serviced at Vintage Brake, and it's been given the full treatment. I'm completely confident with the work that's been done, and don't have any reason for concern in it's performance.
Acotrel, you'll surely be appaled to know that I'm taking a disc brake off the bike in order to put the John Tickle drum on. I know we've all discussed it before, and disc brakes are "better", but it's an old bike that originally had a single leading shoe drum, so the 2LS Tickle, will be a huge improvement, while still being correct for the period.
I like my old bikes to be old. That's the sort of riding experience that I like. I've been riding quite a long time now and all my riding is open country roads, with little traffic, so I won't be hot on the brakes very often.
I take spirited rides, and I've ridden in modern conditions and heavy traffic, with drum brakes and it's always been just fine.
Guys have been racing drum brakes for how long now? Plenty of guys are still racing them as well. So I figure that with my experience, the road conditions that I ride and the fact that the brake has been set up properly, all should be good.
My only question is really about replacement springs. Anyone have anything to add in that regard?
Acotrel, you'll surely be appaled to know that I'm taking a disc brake off the bike in order to put the John Tickle drum on. I know we've all discussed it before, and disc brakes are "better", but it's an old bike that originally had a single leading shoe drum, so the 2LS Tickle, will be a huge improvement, while still being correct for the period.
I like my old bikes to be old. That's the sort of riding experience that I like. I've been riding quite a long time now and all my riding is open country roads, with little traffic, so I won't be hot on the brakes very often.
I take spirited rides, and I've ridden in modern conditions and heavy traffic, with drum brakes and it's always been just fine.
Guys have been racing drum brakes for how long now? Plenty of guys are still racing them as well. So I figure that with my experience, the road conditions that I ride and the fact that the brake has been set up properly, all should be good.
My only question is really about replacement springs. Anyone have anything to add in that regard?
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It obviously depends on what you intend to use the bike for. A Tickle brake is non-standard and so also a step away from original. However because the design was fairly widely used, you should not have a problem with it. My experience comes from using drum brakes for racing. When I was a kid, I had a horror day at Phillip Island when I fell off four times. Simply due to the design of the front brake and once was at about 90 MPH onto the non-skid. I still have that brake, if you want to buy it. I later used a 7R AJS brake with an extended lever to get it sensitive enough to be competitive with disc brakes. I ended up having a the only crash I ever had, which I think had the potential to kill me.
If you look back in history - most of the earlier racing fatalities have involved drum brakes, pudding-basin helmets and friction steering dampers - I am referring to the late 60s and early 70s.
There are too many ways to go wrong with a drum brake, particularly these days when we don't have the range of asbestos-based lining compounds we had in the old days.
In spite of what I've said, if I had a very original commando of a model which had the drum brake as standard, I would try to keep it original. I just would not try to ride it too fast.
If you look back in history - most of the earlier racing fatalities have involved drum brakes, pudding-basin helmets and friction steering dampers - I am referring to the late 60s and early 70s.
There are too many ways to go wrong with a drum brake, particularly these days when we don't have the range of asbestos-based lining compounds we had in the old days.
In spite of what I've said, if I had a very original commando of a model which had the drum brake as standard, I would try to keep it original. I just would not try to ride it too fast.
wilkey113
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I hear you Acotrel, and I imagine that your experiences would have the affect of putting you off drum brakes. Makes sense to feel that way.
For me, it's about originality, and capturing the spirit of the 1960's with this bike. I know my limits, and I ride well within them. I'm also much more concerned with preserving the bike, than I am with going fast or riding crazy. I'm definitely not going to race it, much less competitively, so I'll be keeping it mellow on the streets.
What's the brake that gave you so much trouble at Phillip Island?
For me, it's about originality, and capturing the spirit of the 1960's with this bike. I know my limits, and I ride well within them. I'm also much more concerned with preserving the bike, than I am with going fast or riding crazy. I'm definitely not going to race it, much less competitively, so I'll be keeping it mellow on the streets.
What's the brake that gave you so much trouble at Phillip Island?
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My John Tickle twin leader worked very well On my ES2 fitted with Ferodo AM4 linings most of the time but was TOTALLY useless when the drum was glowing such as when coming down off of The Mountain after a few hours marshalling up at say the 32nd in the wind rain sleet cloud etc and trying to slow down for Governers Bridge whilst trying to get to the Nescafe / Maggi tent behingd the grand stand for a cup of hot coffee or soup BEFORE they packed up shop...Even my 200mm 4 leading shoe Gri Mi Ca front brake on my Dommi was useless but the Manx rear saved me a few times.
Originality is all well and fine........ for bikes sat in museums but on todays roads .....but at the end of the day its your life on the line as you trey to get that drum brake slow you down as that big lorry pulls out in front of you....
Originality is all well and fine........ for bikes sat in museums but on todays roads .....but at the end of the day its your life on the line as you trey to get that drum brake slow you down as that big lorry pulls out in front of you....
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The brake which gave me the biggest problem was made by a guy called Morrie Hunter in Oakleigh, Victoria Australia. When I first got it I could not work out why the return springs were so large. I soon found out. With any drum brake , it can be made to stop as effectively as a disc - ONCE. I ended up using a 7R AJS brake front and rear on my Triton. I extended the lever on the backing plate which made it a one-finger operation. That means one finger on the brake and three wrapped around the twist grip. You needed to be able to do that to stay competitive with disc-braked bikes and stop from running up the back of them during races. I used two different lining on the shoes - ME36 on the front and MZ41 on the rear, This meant that I had substantial brakes when the drum was cold and also when it was hot. Otherwise you have good brakes at the start of a race and none at the end, or no brakes at the start and grippy brakes at the end. The worst situation is when the leading edge of a shoe heats up and the brake suddenly locks on as you approach a corner.
The last time I raced the Triton, I had not raced for about 10 months, so I was a bit out of practice. I over-braked at the end of a straight in front of one of my idiot mates. He got past me, popped in front of me and grabbed a handful of disc brake - just being stupid. I touchéd the brake lever a fraction too hard to stop from creaming him and lost the front. The bike went into a lock-to lock tank-slapper and I did not get my hands off the bars quickly enough. I got launched and ended up sliding down the bitumen on the top of my head with my feet in the air at about 70 MPH - I could see the other bikes coming up behind me. By the time I reached the slight ripple in the road, I was on my side. So I got the dislocated collar-bone - which meant pain for 12 months. It was the only accident in which I ever felt I might have been killed.
A disc brake is a much better option, however I suggest the chrome plated single disc on the commando might not be adequate. On the Seeley I now use two Suzuki discs with the old Ferodo asbestos pads - one finger and it stops like hitting a wall and is very controllable. I'd previously used a single chrome plated Suzuki disc with the Ferodo asbestos pads and it was useless. Also the twin discs with carbon pads was useless.
I know what you are saying about keeping the classic look of your bike, however staying alive might be more important. You don't need front brake antics in the traffic on public roads. In a road race everybody looks after everybody else. With my Seeley, I never have any doubts about what the front brake will do - it is there reliably from start to finish of every race or practice session.
The last time I raced the Triton, I had not raced for about 10 months, so I was a bit out of practice. I over-braked at the end of a straight in front of one of my idiot mates. He got past me, popped in front of me and grabbed a handful of disc brake - just being stupid. I touchéd the brake lever a fraction too hard to stop from creaming him and lost the front. The bike went into a lock-to lock tank-slapper and I did not get my hands off the bars quickly enough. I got launched and ended up sliding down the bitumen on the top of my head with my feet in the air at about 70 MPH - I could see the other bikes coming up behind me. By the time I reached the slight ripple in the road, I was on my side. So I got the dislocated collar-bone - which meant pain for 12 months. It was the only accident in which I ever felt I might have been killed.
A disc brake is a much better option, however I suggest the chrome plated single disc on the commando might not be adequate. On the Seeley I now use two Suzuki discs with the old Ferodo asbestos pads - one finger and it stops like hitting a wall and is very controllable. I'd previously used a single chrome plated Suzuki disc with the Ferodo asbestos pads and it was useless. Also the twin discs with carbon pads was useless.
I know what you are saying about keeping the classic look of your bike, however staying alive might be more important. You don't need front brake antics in the traffic on public roads. In a road race everybody looks after everybody else. With my Seeley, I never have any doubts about what the front brake will do - it is there reliably from start to finish of every race or practice session.
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About this comment :
'Originality is all well and fine........ for bikes sat in museums but on todays roads .....but at the end of the day its your life on the line as you trey to get that drum brake slow you down as that big lorry pulls out in front of you....'
Never fantasise about 'the good old days' of motorcycling. Most of the guys back then were experts who learned to ride on rock-hard tyres using pudding basin helmets, friction steering dampers and drum brakes. Many were killed in their prime. And these days most things happen at higher speeds.
If you look at the speeds on the IOM, in the 30s an 80 MPH lap was fast. As a spectator, in the videos they look slow. You would not want to be doing that on those old bikes.
'Originality is all well and fine........ for bikes sat in museums but on todays roads .....but at the end of the day its your life on the line as you trey to get that drum brake slow you down as that big lorry pulls out in front of you....'
Never fantasise about 'the good old days' of motorcycling. Most of the guys back then were experts who learned to ride on rock-hard tyres using pudding basin helmets, friction steering dampers and drum brakes. Many were killed in their prime. And these days most things happen at higher speeds.
If you look at the speeds on the IOM, in the 30s an 80 MPH lap was fast. As a spectator, in the videos they look slow. You would not want to be doing that on those old bikes.
robs ss
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Some might be interested on a lesson I was taught on the auto-servo effect - painful and expensive.
I was taking my 500 single (see avatar to the right) for a short, leisurely ride about 18 months ago. It has a Tickle TLS, in good condition with strong springs that it arrived with. I was approaching a slow left-hander at about 50km/hr, don't remember applying any front brake - although my fingers would have been resting there, when "BANG", I was suddenly on my side (LH) sliding to a halt.
The damage was bent handlebar, badly damaged LH rearset and brake pedal, scratched leading edge of front mudguard and scratched top!! of chrome headlamp surround - oh, and a broken left ankle (caught under bike)
All is repaired now but one thing is sure - if I hadn't made the rearset as strong (long 3/8" high tensile bolt though full length of footrest) damage to the bike and my ankle would have been more severe.
My initial thoughts were the front tyre had slipped on some sand or something on the "hot-mix" bitumen road - but no, nothing there except a black mark showing where the front brake had locked up. I had vaguely heard of the auto-servo effect but not much more so spent some time researching. The key findings for me were:
1. I had no chamfer/bevel on the leading edge of the brake lining. Apparently having both 90 degree edge plus having lining area too close to the actuating cams is a no-no.
2. My cams and wear clips on the shoe ends were in good condition but probably as manufactured - surface roughness meaning they probably never completely returned to "home" position. The combination of the cams "almost" lifting the shoes together with the sharp liner leading edge, too close to the actuating cam was enough to put the bastard of a sequence in motion. I spend some time polishing the cams the sanding blemished from the clips before polishing them too. Put some moly based HT grease sparingly on operating surfaces before reassembly.
My next few rides were full of apprehension so I found a closed, straight road with no obstacles I could hit and did many runs of increasing speed followed by savage braking (enough to make the front Avon Speedmaster chirp) until the hub was stinking hot. Then ran along same road and very gently squeezed the front brake (differing pressures) to see if I could generate another auto-servo incident. Did this a number of times as the hub cooled but could not get a repeat performance. Took it home and pulled the brake plate off for inspection - looked fine
Hope this helps someone
Cheers
Rob
I was taking my 500 single (see avatar to the right) for a short, leisurely ride about 18 months ago. It has a Tickle TLS, in good condition with strong springs that it arrived with. I was approaching a slow left-hander at about 50km/hr, don't remember applying any front brake - although my fingers would have been resting there, when "BANG", I was suddenly on my side (LH) sliding to a halt.
The damage was bent handlebar, badly damaged LH rearset and brake pedal, scratched leading edge of front mudguard and scratched top!! of chrome headlamp surround - oh, and a broken left ankle (caught under bike)
All is repaired now but one thing is sure - if I hadn't made the rearset as strong (long 3/8" high tensile bolt though full length of footrest) damage to the bike and my ankle would have been more severe.
My initial thoughts were the front tyre had slipped on some sand or something on the "hot-mix" bitumen road - but no, nothing there except a black mark showing where the front brake had locked up. I had vaguely heard of the auto-servo effect but not much more so spent some time researching. The key findings for me were:
1. I had no chamfer/bevel on the leading edge of the brake lining. Apparently having both 90 degree edge plus having lining area too close to the actuating cams is a no-no.
2. My cams and wear clips on the shoe ends were in good condition but probably as manufactured - surface roughness meaning they probably never completely returned to "home" position. The combination of the cams "almost" lifting the shoes together with the sharp liner leading edge, too close to the actuating cam was enough to put the bastard of a sequence in motion. I spend some time polishing the cams the sanding blemished from the clips before polishing them too. Put some moly based HT grease sparingly on operating surfaces before reassembly.
My next few rides were full of apprehension so I found a closed, straight road with no obstacles I could hit and did many runs of increasing speed followed by savage braking (enough to make the front Avon Speedmaster chirp) until the hub was stinking hot. Then ran along same road and very gently squeezed the front brake (differing pressures) to see if I could generate another auto-servo incident. Did this a number of times as the hub cooled but could not get a repeat performance. Took it home and pulled the brake plate off for inspection - looked fine
Hope this helps someone
Cheers
Rob
Last edited:
robs ss
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Have a look at this Tickle TLS on eBay - has linings that are too long and with square ends
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/132005388814?ul_noapp=true
A trap for someone!
I've contacted the seller and asked they send information on how to make the brake safer - not sure they will
Cheers
Rob
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/132005388814?ul_noapp=true
A trap for someone!
I've contacted the seller and asked they send information on how to make the brake safer - not sure they will
Cheers
Rob