It's a long way to 920 type(rary)

Discussion in 'Norton Commando Classic Motorcycles' started by yves norton seeley, Jan 14, 2018.

  1. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Bonsoir l'ami,
    Yes François is a nice guy, but you see only two of is wonderfull collection of bike and cars including Vincent Black Shadow and a Bugatti and mutch more, I never speak about this. You must ask Bruno to know more.... François is also a Golden Boy in the international financial world
    Yves
     
  2. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Hi Jim, I explain to Elring all this parameters, whait and see
    Yves
     
  3. Brooking 850

    Brooking 850 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Thanks Yves, its that time of the year for 'magic helmets' here in New Zealand as well.
    We await your R&D with head gaskets.
    Regards Mike
     
  4. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Hi There, to day I try 26° advance, 28° before, and did a road test, my feeling is that I have less peak power and more bottom power
    Tomorow I will call Elring to have some news
    Keep you posted
    Yves
     
  5. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Hi there,
    I receive a call from Elring to day, they receive the cooper gasket to day, an after a close look, the ingenior think that they will use the Metal Soft CHG technology, you can find the description of it on www elring.com.
    The cooper gasket will go on tuesday to the R&D departement for the final proposal, the only thing I know so far is that their technologies can withstand heat up to 500° F or 260° C
    The only bad news is that they need 8 weeks to produce the gaskets, of course I understand that Mercedes, BMW or Audi get priority
    BTW Elring ask me to keep the cooper gasket to put it their musea....
    I hope the 0.8mm cooper gasket will hold 8 weeks, I will try to ride softly
    Keep you posted
    Yves
     
  6. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    A useful aspect of the copper gasket is that it is a reliable dimension, meaning that it doesn’t crush much. This makes it very useful when trying to set the squish up to tight tolerances.

    I would therefore like to ask you Yves, to ask if they can give us this info and stipulate an accurate ‘crushed’ thickness?

    I confess that I’m surprised at how helpful they’ve been Yves. Have they mentioned minimum order quantities or prices yet?
     
  7. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Nigel,
    The minimum order is 3 pieces, and I will know the price on tuesday, German technologies are never cheap...
    I will ask them about the crush also
    They are very helpfull and I think they like the challenge to...
    Yves
     
  8. jseng1

    jseng1

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2009
    What about crushed head gaskets causing warpage?
     
  9. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Not sure why they’d do that if they’re designed to crush X amount at Y torque. So long as the clamping force is uniform, why / how could it warp?

    I’m not aware of composite gaskets, which crush, causing warpage?
     
  10. jseng1

    jseng1

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2009
    Have you accurately measured a old used composite HG? Perfectly uniform? Hard to measure when they've gone bad. I had a couple leak on me and thought they were changing dimension - can't remember how I determined that. Went back to copper and they leaked even worse until I went to the wire and pliobond.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2018
  11. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    I didn’t try accurately measuring an old HG, I thought that perhaps they swell again when the clamping force is removed?

    I simply measured it roughly to get an idea and then used the soft solder measuring method for the squish clearence, and fresh gasket of the same kind for the final build.
     
  12. jseng1

    jseng1

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2009
    New head gasket installation video with Pliobond and .005" copper wire
     
  13. NKN

    NKN

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Is Pliobond easy to clean after, let's say 10'000 miles when taking the head off for any reason?
     
  14. Mr. Rick

    Mr. Rick VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2009
    My question exactly. At first glance, looks like it wd be a serious pain. Does it dry clear? Or dry at all?
     
  15. jseng1

    jseng1

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2009
    Its a high temp contact cement. It drys and the high temp burns it a bit so it turns an amber color and it hardens somewhat. I scrape it off with a sharp wood chisel the same way that I scrape off residue & burnt oil when you peel off a composite gasket - its about the same amount of PIA.
     
  16. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014

    Hi There,
    Here be the pic from my 0.6mm HG, my opinion is that the blow start between the bore and the bolt hole in front of the spark plug, the thing is that the HG is burn also, so I tink that it first burn and then blow away.
    As you can see there is no other blow places on the HG, even not between the two bores, to me the cooper was from bad quality, there was no trace from detonations on the pistons. here is the way I did to torque the head:
    Put the head on with Pliobond following Jim instructions, torque the head and leave it one night, after 24 hours I retrorque the head an let the engine warm up 10 minutes, when cold I retorque the head again, then ride 200 kms and retorque the head and a last retorque at 500 kms.
    To me Pliobond is a very good sealant, even with a part of the HG blowed away, it was still difficult to take the head off.
    To day I was expecting a email from Elring, but nothings happens...I call Elring and they says that my contact person is on hollyday for two weeks and thet will need 10 weeks to make the gasket... I hate this kind of situation!
    So I start searching another HG factory and I find one: Elmeso Reban in the city of Solingen in Germany, take a look at there web site (german only) I will call them tomorow
    As you know I put a 0.8mm cooper HG on my engine and did 200 kms pass WE, so far so good...
    Keep you posted
     
  17. Kvinnhering

    Kvinnhering VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2011
    Yes, this should be okay. I support you in the theory that there is something wrong with the quality of the copper gasket. Either thin in this area or matrial quality of the copper itself.

    Wich you good luck finding a modern HG that is more suited to our dear engines.
    If the thickness is correct, I may also be interested in a few copies.
     
  18. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    I will try to have a appointment on monday, Solingen is only 220 kms from Brussels
    Keep you posted
    Yves
     
  19. jseng1

    jseng1

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2009
    Yves - When you blow a gasket you don't mess around do you?

    I think you will be OK with the JS copper HG (as long as there isn't a low spot in your head or cylinders). I have never seen one blow. (You don't need to anneal it).
     
  20. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Hi there,
    The news of the day: I ring Elmeso Reban and speak with a very fine man and we make a apointment for nex monday, so I will go to Solingen to explain my problem.
    Elmeso is not a factory like Elring, it is more a workshop and they think also that they can solve the problem from the HG, more news on monday eve.
    I also receive a call from Elring, I will have more news next week.
    Anyhow I will play with the two companies.
    Elmeso need four weeks to make the gaskets and the minimum tickness is 1mm, so I will grind 0.4mm from the head to have the same compression as with the 0.6mm
    I will ask Elring to make a 1mm also and if I have problems with the compression, I can still put a gasket under the cylinder.
    Believe it or not but there is a diference in power between a 0.6mm (the one that blow) and the 0.8mm that I am using now, I don't know how to explain it but with the 0.6 it was the "Whooo" feeling and with the 0.8 It is "Who" feeling.
    Of course I was not sleeping this week, I dismantel the Fontana front brake for painting the sides and I rise up the Ceriani 8mm higher in the yokes, just to try...
    Keep you posted
    Yves
     

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