Hotting Up A MkIII

Status
Not open for further replies.
mikegray660 said:
+1
there is always guys on forums who claim their brand or choice is the best (here its Norton of course) - and how their particular bike is the fastest/most powerful/capable to leap tall building etc etc - we all see it with the occasional newbie -like here-(and a few notable members who's crack supply must be endless)

i have 2 commando's currently (i've built them both myself, with of course some work done by our experts like Jim C ) and enjoy them but also realize their short comings and limitations - my 850 is stock but my 750 has 10:1 compression, headwork, a 2S cam (w/ reprofiled lifters etc) and mikuni VM's - its quicker than the 850 (not by as much as one would think) but still isn't going to set any speed records and thats fine

making a real hot rod norton by yourself great in my book, but realistically it ain't going to last long (and maybe thats OK with you) and at the end of the day it still will be an antiquated pushrod motor that not going to beat any modern bike - FACT -i admit it is fun though- but will require constant work & if your paying someone to make the bike for you (pathetic) rather than doing it your self your setting yourself up for lots of problems when it starts to implode

ok off to the gym - i know most here don't know what a gym is thinking i have misspelled it and am planning a visit to Jim C in the great northwest :mrgreen:





dennisgb said:
Phil,

.....

I look at anything with an engine with wonder...the engineer in me...yes there is some crap...but they all have a place and a purpose. Some people just want to learn how to ride, can't afford a classic or wouldn't want one because they might ruin it. Some people want to commute and get good fuel economy. I don't thumb my nose at anyone who likes the feel of the open road and the wind in their face, because that is what motorcycling is all about to me.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Are you referring to a so called newbie with reference to this forum?
Or to motorcycling in general?

If it is the forum then I assume you see yourself in some self proclaimed higher position.
I also see you don't contribute at all to its running.
I guess you are in such a high position you are a life member. Let someone else spend their time and money operating it.
If I'm happy to let someone with far more expertise than me build me a hot Commando, that's my prerogative. It's not your concern or problem.
If you don't want to, or can't afford to,
that's not my problem.
 
hobot said:
Its cycle paradise mecca here with every sort of cycle and cycle pilot and group so have been able to compare pecking orders from supermotard, elite sports bikes and big bad baggers with 110 cid. If you are wiling to press your Commando to about 120 mph then can keep up with the majority of any of hot rods as that's about as fast as they dare take the opens before next series of turns and Cdo can pretty much accelerate enough to stay in the pack or soon catch up when they do use the power on tap. You will be using up the life of engine and drive train to try to hang with eager pilots on their elite moderns. If roads are wide and mostly straights then no way can a un-boosted Commando keep up after ~90 mph and no way can un-tammed isolastics handle the oscillating loads laid over on power like the Ducati example. Upping the final drive ratio pays back twice, one to stay in lower gears longer and two to hit higher top speeds within Cdo rpm tolerance. My greatest surprise was the huge advantage of Peel's against the mis guided engineering wisdom of making a over stiff linkage set up, so don't have to slow up like the poor fat tire cripples like that Ducati and others so looked up to by everyone else. pashaw. If you ain't got at least 70 hp on less than 350 lb cycle then don't expect to play with modern hot shots over 90 mph. My factory Combat was able to hang for 20 miles with 2013 GSRX's Aprilia's, Hyaburas group that would press luck accelerating in time to pass which left me the least amount of time and space to accelerate to pass or get left miles behind but Combat power was up to it and still would of got left behind as did not press past 110-ish to preserve engine but they all always pile up at turns so would be right on their tails again holding back speed not to hit THE Hinge very much hanging corners just as fast as they dared too. If they'd been in a contest though my un-tammed Combat would of been left in the dust after first real turn but Peel could lay down more power securely on leans I found it took most a mile of moderns going all out to 140+ to catch up again. No way can my wimpy 70hp/365 lb SV650 hang with moderns using their power as got left behind so far on first open I was all alone and just as corner crippled at they are so don't even consider asking if I can tag along, let alone till bored as became my mean matured habit on Peel, hoping it'd piss em off so they would try to max out uselessly on their wheelie and tire edge limited angry looking plastic bait insects. If ya don't have to assume full dragster posture to stay on your Commando up to the ton then forgetabout taking on elites with a quaint fragile antique.
Click to expand...

Okay hobot, I've read all of that. But I will still beat you. Now tell me,
Is/was there a 3S cam?
Tell me about the 4S cam.
Is push rod shortening required?
 
Yes, there was a 3S cam. Norton part number 063761. Same timing as 2S, but more lift. It wasn't all that popular compared to the 2S and 4S. 2S was popular for street bikes, and 4S was popular with the racers. Short stroke 750 came from factory with 4S cam installed. Commando Production Racer was supposed to come with 3S cam installed, but some were delivered with stock Commando cam instead.

Ken
 
i had a 750 big valve head 3s cam motor in a wideline feather bed chassis cafe racer very good top end power
 
Peel just prior to her prime, had small port head, 2S cam, 10 CR and single 34 mm carb dual peashooters, so was basic sluggish quaint hound as all the rest of ya put up with but maxed out pats destroying racers, TILL the 2-1 megaphone had its end baffle plate shot out in frustration over why I ever got involved with such fragile antiques after the P!! fooled me to expect a lot more from a Combat than actual common reality. After my corner school on liter Ninja spanking angry instructor sent out to show me why X were put down that I best ignored, I really got depressed on how dangerous handling and sluggish Commandos were, till I got even more pissed off having Peel about run out from under me in my drive way, that I could still be so depressed I'd forgot to even hold on some - till it sunk in on 3rd time that I simply could not stay on Peel unless hunkered down white knuckled bar grip and butt planted on back stop. Peel just got better pull than even this d/t better tire speed traction hooking up power till about 90 mph in 2nd in red zone. I really believe that besides the exhaust system finally working right up there with it was the mis matched step of too big a manifold into too small head ports and who in their right mind would consider that a power helper but me, so no skin off my hide if ya think I'm stupid fool as still decade later I still get out of state riders looking for the Kingston Norton Nut to draw down on like gun fighters with this road ain't big enough for the both of us out front. Not as many now as periodic news some of them killed on a bike ride while commuting. One my dead buddies Bob Grimlen[sp] did point out where his best buddy died over the rail on fun sports ride on Hwy 123. So to impress hobot you need power response fear on triggering throttle to avoid tire spin or wheelies hesitations.
https://www.google.com/#q=arkansas+hwy+123
 
Nothing quite like spending the afternoon at the Mittagong Hotel, sharing stories of beating them jap bikes on the trusty old norton , with a middi or 5 of VB, a few bucks on the pokies and NRL on the big screen.
Then its grab the missus from the Lounge bar to drive us all to the RSA :lol:
Hotting Up A MkIII
 
Well I for one sure know about the rocket ships capacity once pointed into the opens so my underlying opinion of even Ms Peel power wise which indeed could out leap the moderns up to 90 but only because they'd get wheelie limited on the short instant decision spruts into tights that ancient Norton torque band allowed... is rather poor. The ones I did ask about what their speedo's showed in the opens that passed me said over 130 to get by Peel with the lead she get into the opens. The runs we'd do in the Mt. twistes would almost never get below 70 nor above 120 so Peel power was bit better than 600's and worse than 900's, which meant we all had to hold what ever positions we had in opens till next set of turns braking or powering into them capacity came into play. Same thing at real races everyone piles up at sharp turns going so slow till hp drags start real race to them again.

Even with more spunk to mass than most ya can dream about Peel mainly impressed me by her breath taking handling which pisses off owners of clunky Command and killer moderns. Only thing I can think of to please me more while pissing off everyone [but the one-percenters] is doing it feet forward on a springer chopper.
 
lcrken said:
Yes, there was a 3S cam. Norton part number 063761. Same timing as 2S, but more lift. It wasn't all that popular compared to the 2S and 4S. 2S was popular for street bikes, and 4S was popular with the racers. Short stroke 750 came from factory with 4S cam installed. Commando Production Racer was supposed to come with 3S cam installed, but some were delivered with stock Commando cam instead.

Ken
Click to expand...

Thanks Ken
I can't get any sense out of hobot at the moment. He's dreaming Commando choppers and not responding to medication. But he'll be back, eventually.

I was sure my last "Combat" which was a hotted up version had a 3S installed but hearing nothing in here about such a cam model, I was starting to think it was perhaps a 2S I had. But 3S is sticking in my mind. The motor was certainly cammy but with a 19T sprocket there was no shortage of low down grunt either. I take it with a 4S, power would come in even further up the scale?

Being sensible about this project, pushing the MkIII's 60hp (if that is correct) up by about 10% is possibly as far as one might go without running into reliability troubles. 10% is not chicken feed anyway. Watching that tacho needle go from 0 to 7000 as fast as you can wind the throttle open in the lower gears is the exhilarating thing, coupled to that exquisite howl out the back and response snarl each time you shift up. Five speed box would be interesting. With a 19T sprocket, Fourth always feels like there should be one more gear to go. It just sounds and feels too busy at reasonable speeds.

There seems no shortage of knowledge about mods that can be done, but balancing them to achieve the desired increased horsepower coupled to the right gearing is indeed a balancing act. Not to mention keeping reliability issues under control as well. I know what I'm looking for but sifting through how best to achieve it.

I've got a couple of months to work it all out before Don commences the project. So it will be a fun couple of months and I'm sure the end result will be very impressive.

No, it will never match a modern "explosion horsepower" Japo Plastic Crapo but around some of the tighter areas of the Southern Highlands, the good handling light weight Commando might make them look pretty sick. Braking is the other issue to address. But I am already onto that.

Phil
 
72Combat said:
Nothing quite like spending the afternoon at the Mittagong Hotel, sharing stories of beating them jap bikes on the trusty old norton , with a middi or 5 of VB, a few bucks on the pokies and NRL on the big screen.
Then its grab the missus from the Lounge bar to drive us all to the RSA :lol:
Hotting Up A MkIII
Click to expand...

Well I'm glad this time you didn't say "grab MUM from the Lounge bar". You had me seriously concerned earlier. I never drink at the RSL (what is the RSA?). I'm a creature of habit. Two proper beers (not VB, Carlton etc, but micro brewery offerings) at the Mitto, then home to cook dinner. Used to eat out a bit but lately have become terribly interested in cooking new dishes at home for some reason. There is always something new to discover in life.

Cooking the new MkIII is my current ambition. Forget standing quarter times and let's talk pub to home. Currently three minutes, I want my times down into the low two's. Going to the pub doesn't count, because I stop in at the gym first.

Playing pokies? I have never even been near such, wouldn't even know how to drive one, what happened to that gear lever they used to have on the side? Must be all automatics these days. I've met some wealthy people but none of them won it on the pokies. Also met some poor people whose savings went into the bastards, and still do!

I don't watch Australia beat New Zealand in the rugby all the time on TV either.

Two beers, a quick chat and home for dinner. I have a TV but have forgotten how to turn it on, preferring to play music.

And from the bedroom window I can see my beloved Red Commando.
Life has never been better.

Phil
 
Hi, phil yates. May I ask what flavor of fuel tank you are putting on your new motorcycle?
 
auldblue said:
Hi, phil yates. May I ask what flavor of fuel tank you are putting on your new motorcycle?
Click to expand...

BRG Fastback.

And I won't be cooking the new MkIII. Bad choice of wording on my part. That used to mean you stuffed the engine.
"Heating up" would be a better description.

It's going to be the world's best standard non standard MkIII.
And go like the clappers!!

Phil
 
phil yates said:
72Combat said:
Nothing quite like spending the afternoon at the Mittagong Hotel, sharing stories of beating them jap bikes on the trusty old norton , with a middi or 5 of VB, a few bucks on the pokies and NRL on the big screen.
Then its grab the missus from the Lounge bar to drive us all to the RSA :lol:
Hotting Up A MkIII
Click to expand...

Well I'm glad this time you didn't say "grab MUM from the Lounge bar". You had me seriously concerned earlier. I never drink at the RSL (what is the RSA?). I'm a creature of habit. Two proper beers (not VB, Carlton etc, but micro brewery offerings) at the Mitto, then home to cook dinner. Used to eat out a bit but lately have become terribly interested in cooking new dishes at home for some reason. There is always something new to discover in life.

Cooking the new MkIII is my current ambition. Forget standing quarter times and let's talk pub to home. Currently three minutes, I want my times down into the low two's. Going to the pub doesn't count, because I stop in at the gym first.

Playing pokies? I have never even been near such, wouldn't even know how to drive one, what happened to that gear lever they used to have on the side? Must be all automatics these days. I've met some wealthy people but none of them won it on the pokies. Also met some poor people whose savings went into the bastards, and still do!

I don't watch Australia beat New Zealand in the rugby all the time on TV either.

Two beers, a quick chat and home for dinner. I have a TV but have forgotten how to turn it on, preferring to play music.

And from the bedroom window I can see my beloved Red Commando.
Life has never been better.

Phil
Click to expand...

Dang..... so much for sterotypes.... :lol:
Gotta agree on the crap commercial beer, prefer a nicely hopped IPA. Cooking... mmmm Thai ? I'm off to Vietnam in aug for a bike trip so looking forward to the food.
Used to ride up your way in the mid 80's , some nice twisty roads that the Ducati loved. these days it loves being under a blanket in the shed.
 
pete.v said:
One thing you can say about Phil's threads and post, there is little fear of highjacking, it's the norm.

I retracted an earlier post out of fear of offending other than the intended, but it seem so relevent in this case that I shall re-post.

"Other than the obvious, if there was any question as to reasons why there should be a separate area for MKIII issues, I give you Phil Yates."

Phil, no offence but your posts are basically hypothetical and tends to delute, no.....polute, the overall content of the forum as a whole. IMHO

I'll tell you what is realistic is that whole 2 stall trailer thing with the RV and the satalite dish stuff.
Click to expand...

Well I enjoy your posts Pete.
I guess we can't both be happy.
One out of two ain't bad.

Phil
 
crap - i'm agreeing with pete ! :lol:

dude you and hobut should have a circle jerk - i can see it now

Hotting Up A MkIII
 
pete.v said:
For christ sake Phil, what time is it there? Don't you sleep or are you just coming in from the pub.
Click to expand...

Sleep?
Over 600 posts in less than two months.
No time for sleep!
 
phil yates said:
Now that is a very good post and I agree with all you've said bar one thing. The Commando is still capable of being an everyday bike in these modern times.
Click to expand...

I believe that to be true. It's what I am doing to my MKIII without the hotted up engine. The Norton can scare the crap out of you without pushing it over the edge from a reliability standpoint. It's the one area we may differ on...but you have 2 so why not?

phil yates said:
Mine is just that, and I've owned lots and lots of different bikes. It does require a lot of care and attention, it's not a "set and forget" piece of kit, but it is a delight to ride and I use it everyday for general transport. Plus it looks special and sounds very special. I like machinery too, tractors, trucks, aeroplanes, some cars etc. But a lot of modern motorcycles I just find characterless and so similar in looks I walk straight past them in the street. Not all, Ducati's, Beemer's etc, even some Harley's I'll stop to check out. But the great majority of Japo bikes? Not so much.
Click to expand...

I get the "characterless" factor...not unlike most modern cars. There is nothing like vintage iron from a character standpoint...many are works of art in my opinion. The Commando is one of those. The lines of the bike are close to perfect...and it has stood the test of time.

Put any brand modern sport bike next to another and it's hard to tell them apart. I absolutely agree with this argument. It's about washed out marketing for the given niche...if something works, copy it...there has been very little innovation for a long time...and the Japanese have never been very good at that. The perfect modern example is the Cruiser segment...how close can we come to a Harley? If there is money to be made...

I think to some degree your preaching to the choir Phil...in the time I have been on this forum, the one common thread with all of the people here is a respect for the Commando and vintage motorcycles in general.
 
Phil

If you cannot be the king, why bother. You can hop up a Cdo and surprise a few Nips, but there will always be one that will blow you away.

Put one of these V4's in a Featherbed and surprise them all! $9K can get you one...plus postage.

http://motusmotorcycles.com

It will not handle like a FB with the engine turning longitudinally...maybe a guy might could (might could is a Texas verb form...means there is a better than slim to none chance a fella can achieve some end if he is clever enough and persistent as well ....says a lot for two little words) turn the engine transversely, and make it handle as well as go.

Hey! Think of it....Not since WW2 has there been such a teamwork....American engine, British frame, and Aussie ingenuity, all come together to beat the Japs.

Slick
 
dennisgb said:
phil yates said:
Now that is a very good post and I agree with all you've said bar one thing. The Commando is still capable of being an everyday bike in these modern times.
Click to expand...

I believe that to be true. It's what I am doing to my MKIII without the hotted up engine. The Norton can scare the crap out of you without pushing it over the edge from a reliability standpoint. It's the one area we may differ on...but you have 2 so why not?

phil yates said:
Mine is just that, and I've owned lots and lots of different bikes. It does require a lot of care and attention, it's not a "set and forget" piece of kit, but it is a delight to ride and I use it everyday for general transport. Plus it looks special and sounds very special. I like machinery too, tractors, trucks, aeroplanes, some cars etc. But a lot of modern motorcycles I just find characterless and so similar in looks I walk straight past them in the street. Not all, Ducati's, Beemer's etc, even some Harley's I'll stop to check out. But the great majority of Japo bikes? Not so much.
Click to expand...

I get the "characterless" factor...not unlike most modern cars. There is nothing like vintage iron from a character standpoint...many are works of art in my opinion. The Commando is one of those. The lines of the bike are close to perfect...and it has stood the test of time.

Put any brand modern sport bike next to another and it's hard to tell them apart. I absolutely agree with this argument. It's about washed out marketing for the given niche...if something works, copy it...there has been very little innovation for a long time...and the Japanese have never been very good at that. The perfect modern example is the Cruiser segment...how close can we come to a Harley? If there is money to be made...

I think to some degree your preaching to the choir Phil...in the time I have been on this forum, the one common thread with all of the people here is a respect for the Commando and vintage motorcycles in general.
Click to expand...

All makes a lot of sense den. Neither of us far off the mark (i.e. MkIII in fact) at all. There are a few in here who need least ride a MkIII before treating and speaking of it as a pariah. But some just don't want to know. They are comfortable with their closed minds. I'm not here to teach them how to open their minds. Or why they should bother. There are none so blind as……...

Modern cars? I simply can't tell one from the other. For my part, I have a Belgium built job with turbo 1.9 litre diesel motor and six speed box. Handles like a motorbike and stops on a pin. But apparently was never a good seller for unknown reasons. I believe
deemed to be too race car in feel for the average Joe. Everything I pick always seems to be dead opposite to what the masses want. I guess I'm not a mass. :)

I'll hot the new MkIII up alright, but I won't blow it up. I believe it has more room for punching out power than the 750 motor. But I will be sensible about it. It is never going to do 150mph and I don't want it to.

A 19T sprocket and five speed box definitely appeals to me. The standard MkIII with 20/21T sprocket works perfectly with the four speed box, in my opinion. But a 19T makes fourth too low, once you get into it after acceleration.

I'm going to enjoy the whole project, and in reality should not cost way too much extra on top of what I am already spending having the bike built. Good luck with your MkIII.
That guy in LA who thinks it's pathetic not building your own or upgrading it yourself. Well good luck to him. I don't even have a garage let alone all the required tools. So I just buy em and ride em. Didn't build my own aircraft either. But I do own a hangar for that, and the airfield is only ten minutes away.
Some like using machines.
Some like building machines.
Some like both.
I'm category one.

Winners are grinners.
The rest can suit themselves.

Being happy is being a winner.

Phil
 
72Combat said:
phil yates said:
72Combat said:
Nothing quite like spending the afternoon at the Mittagong Hotel, sharing stories of beating them jap bikes on the trusty old norton , with a middi or 5 of VB, a few bucks on the pokies and NRL on the big screen.
Then its grab the missus from the Lounge bar to drive us all to the RSA :lol:
Hotting Up A MkIII
Click to expand...

Well I'm glad this time you didn't say "grab MUM from the Lounge bar". You had me seriously concerned earlier. I never drink at the RSL (what is the RSA?). I'm a creature of habit. Two proper beers (not VB, Carlton etc, but micro brewery offerings) at the Mitto, then home to cook dinner. Used to eat out a bit but lately have become terribly interested in cooking new dishes at home for some reason. There is always something new to discover in life.

Cooking the new MkIII is my current ambition. Forget standing quarter times and let's talk pub to home. Currently three minutes, I want my times down into the low two's. Going to the pub doesn't count, because I stop in at the gym first.

Playing pokies? I have never even been near such, wouldn't even know how to drive one, what happened to that gear lever they used to have on the side? Must be all automatics these days. I've met some wealthy people but none of them won it on the pokies. Also met some poor people whose savings went into the bastards, and still do!

I don't watch Australia beat New Zealand in the rugby all the time on TV either.

Two beers, a quick chat and home for dinner. I have a TV but have forgotten how to turn it on, preferring to play music.

And from the bedroom window I can see my beloved Red Commando.
Life has never been better.

Phil
Click to expand...

Dang..... so much for sterotypes.... :lol:
Gotta agree on the crap commercial beer, prefer a nicely hopped IPA. Cooking... mmmm Thai ? I'm off to Vietnam in aug for a bike trip so looking forward to the food.
Used to ride up your way in the mid 80's , some nice twisty roads that the Ducati loved. these days it loves being under a blanket in the shed.
Click to expand...

I was heavily into micro style brewing for a long time. Used to enjoy getting over to NZ where you guys were a wake up to real beer. I had a warehouse in Auckland. Finally catching on well over here and the Mittagong Hotel runs a new style per keg until it runs out, then a different one again. The boys don't think much of it unfortunately, looks like cat's piss being the usual comment.
VB drinkers will die as VB drinkers etc, with the amount they consume, that shouldn't be far off.
Yes, very good riding roads around here, pretty scenery and so on. But you will never match NZ for scenery. Tassy not bad, the rest of Oz pretty damn flat, as you know.

Phil
 
texasSlick said:
Phil

If you cannot be the king, why bother. You can hop up a Cdo and surprise a few Nips, but there will always be one that will blow you away.

Put one of these V4's in a Featherbed and surprise them all! $9K can get you one...plus postage.

http://motusmotorcycles.com

It will not handle like a FB with the engine turning longitudinally...maybe a guy might could (might could is a Texas verb form...means there is a better than slim to none chance a fella can achieve some end if he is clever enough and persistent as well ....says a lot for two little words) turn the engine transversely, and make it handle as well as go.

Hey! Think of it....Not since WW2 has there been such a teamwork....American engine, British frame, and Aussie ingenuity, all come together to beat the Japs.

Slick
Click to expand...

Sounds good Slick.
Anything to get those pesky things off my roads. Worse than insects on a summer's night.
But I thought we won the war?
If someone would stop feeling sorry for the enemy afterwards and giving them back their toys, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Phil
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top