Header Pipe Not Secure

Fast Eddie said:
You mentioned copper and steel washers earlier. Are you using the correct crush washers ?
Click to expand...
I've previously used just copper crush type for commando. When I had issues with roses staying tight, went to steel sealing washers as recommended by several here to help keep roses tight. Ultimately still had issues and had the ports sleeved, went beck to copper sealing washers.
 
Are you sure the flanges on your pipe are deep enough.
Just throwing it out there.
 
MichaelB said:
Are you sure the flanges on your pipe are deep enough.
Just throwing it out there.
Click to expand...
Not sure what you mean here. The rose nut abutts against the flange and pushes it towards the head until it contacts the sealing washer/head. There's still exposed thread on the nut so it hasn't bottomed out in the threads of the sleeve. Verified this by threading the nut without pipe/washer and all threads disappear fully into sleeve. A short "depth" to the pipe flange would just position whole pipe a bit further rearward once nut is fully tightened. Too deep a pipe flange would just place pipe slightly forward when nut goes tight.
 
Got it. Thought they were bottoming out.
Something weird going on.
Is the nut binding on the pipe?
 
How about something like machinist's dye, modeling clay, etc. that you can paint on / put in to get an image of why it isn't tightening up ?
 
Tornado said:
I've previously used just copper crush type for commando. When I had issues with roses staying tight, went to steel sealing washers as recommended by several here to help keep roses tight. Ultimately still had issues and had the ports sleeved, went beck to copper sealing washers.
Click to expand...
Not sure what you mean by ‘sealing washers’ ?

My point is that the correct crush washers are thick. Their thickness allows them to absorb / take up a lot of non uniformity, high spots, etc, as they are tightened and ‘crushed’.

If your washers are not like this, you could easily be tightening up on a high point. If that was the case, it would be tight, but still allow movement. So might be your issue?
 
Fast Eddie said:
Not sure what you mean by ‘sealing washers’ ?

My point is that the correct crush washers are thick. Their thickness allows them to absorb / take up a lot of non uniformity, high spots, etc, as they are tightened and ‘crushed’.

If your washers are not like this, you could easily be tightening up on a high point. If that was the case, it would be tight, but still allow movement. So might be your issue?
Click to expand...
Copper crush sealing washers for commando. They have been on bike when I acquired 5 yrs ago, so maybe overly flattened. New set, plus spherical type on order.
 
My header pipes kept coming lose , best trick I had found was to remove the mufflers, but get the pipes in roughly the right place and tighten exhaust roses good and tight , then fit the mufflers , the misalignment helps jam the nuts and stops them coming loose .we'll has on mine .
 
Tornado said:
I've previously used just copper crush type for commando. When I had issues with roses staying tight, went to steel sealing washers as recommended by several here to help keep roses tight. Ultimately still had issues and had the ports sleeved, went beck to copper sealing washers.
Click to expand...

Tornado said:
Copper crush sealing washers for commando. They have been on bike when I acquired 5 yrs ago, so maybe overly flattened.
Click to expand...

Surely not the same copper crush washers!
Not wishing to state the obvious but crush washers are intended to be used once as they are unlikely to seal effectively if used a second, third, etc. time.
 
Fast Eddie said:
My point is that the correct crush washers are thick. Their thickness allows them to absorb / take up a lot of non uniformity, high spots, etc, as they are tightened and ‘crushed’.
Click to expand...

However, the standard "Seal Washers" aren't all that thick (0.10") and with three 'folds', can't have much internal space left to 'crush'.

andover-norton.co.uk

Motorcycle parts and spares for Norton motorbikes - Genuine Andover Norton Spare Parts - Andover Norton Motorcycles Parts - Original Andover Norton Parts

Motorcycle parts and spares for Andover Norton motorbikes: Andover Norton manufactures and supplies all Genuine Factory Spare Parts for Norton motorcycles built before 2002.
andover-norton.co.uk
 
L.A.B. said:
However, the standard "Seal Washers" aren't all that thick (0.10") and with three 'folds', can't have much internal space left to 'crush'.

andover-norton.co.uk

Motorcycle parts and spares for Norton motorbikes - Genuine Andover Norton Spare Parts - Andover Norton Motorcycles Parts - Original Andover Norton Parts

Motorcycle parts and spares for Andover Norton motorbikes: Andover Norton manufactures and supplies all Genuine Factory Spare Parts for Norton motorcycles built before 2002.
andover-norton.co.uk
Click to expand...

A lot thicker, and more crushable, than your average flat copper washer !
 
Fast Eddie said:
A lot thicker, and more crushable, than your average flat copper washer !
Click to expand...

Possibly, but I think the original (asbestos filled?) T2166 Norton twin copper sealing washers were the rolled copper sheet type, not solid.
Still available for singles (almost certainly non-asbestos ceramic if filled?).
andover-norton.co.uk

Motorcycle parts and spares for Norton motorbikes - Genuine Andover Norton Spare Parts - Andover Norton Motorcycles Parts - Original Andover Norton Parts

Motorcycle parts and spares for Andover Norton motorbikes: Andover Norton manufactures and supplies all Genuine Factory Spare Parts for Norton motorcycles built before 2002.
andover-norton.co.uk

racingnorton.co.uk

SOHC, OHV and SV (all Singles) Exhaust Pipe Port Crushable Washer

- Copper/Asbestos Type Washer used to seal exhaust pipe where it screws into cylinder head (normally requires replacement each time Union Nut is refitted). Fits all SOHC, OHV and Side Valve Norton models
racingnorton.co.uk racingnorton.co.uk
 
L.A.B. said:
Possibly, but I think the original (asbestos filled?) T2166 Norton twin copper sealing washers were the rolled copper sheet type, not solid.
Still available for singles (almost certainly non-asbestos ceramic if filled?).
andover-norton.co.uk

Motorcycle parts and spares for Norton motorbikes - Genuine Andover Norton Spare Parts - Andover Norton Motorcycles Parts - Original Andover Norton Parts

Motorcycle parts and spares for Andover Norton motorbikes: Andover Norton manufactures and supplies all Genuine Factory Spare Parts for Norton motorcycles built before 2002.
andover-norton.co.uk

racingnorton.co.uk

SOHC, OHV and SV (all Singles) Exhaust Pipe Port Crushable Washer

- Copper/Asbestos Type Washer used to seal exhaust pipe where it screws into cylinder head (normally requires replacement each time Union Nut is refitted). Fits all SOHC, OHV and Side Valve Norton models
racingnorton.co.uk racingnorton.co.uk
Click to expand...

Good point.

But at the time, the OP simply said ‘sealing washer’ which could mean anything.

It transpires we might be talking about very old and very flattened crush washers.

Either way, if it were me, I’d try nice, new, proper, crush washers (perhaps even two) before I started doing anything more complex / involved.
 
Update:

Received new copper crush washers plus pair of hemisphere type in case they do a better job.
Following removal and clean up of header, this was discovered:
Header Pipe Not Secure


The crack easily accounts for the movement I was seeing between rose nut and rest of header. It was also concealed by the rose nut when mounted up.

Port looks fine with no signs of alloy erosion, looks and feels flat with the bronze-Al sleeve.

Header Pipe Not Secure

So looks like I need a new header.
 
So, if you removed the rose to inspect/replace the crush washer, how did you not see the crack?
 
concours said:
So, if you removed the rose to inspect/replace the crush washer, how did you not see the crack?
Click to expand...
Had not cleaned it up as much and didn't need to fully pull the rose all the way back off the welded on section, also didn't have my lighting stick there that day as I was only doing washer/re-torquing the nut.
Today I had the light etc and even then only noticed the crack after doing some wire brush work on the header flange end. In the photo I'm prying it further apart for the photo, unforced it is quite a bit harder to see.
 
Last edited:

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