Grease the Swing Arm Spindle

Is there a recommended upgrade/modification for the swingarm spindle that allows grease to be used instead of heavy oil? I am pretty sure I have seen a couple of references to this, but could not find anything in the archives. I vaguely recall something about machining a spiral in the spindle. Any details on how to go about this, or any other solutions to the problem would be appreciated.
Thanks,

Stephen Hill
Victoria, BC

Never heard of it personally, and don't see how it would work - grease still wouldn't filter into the sintered bronze bushings.

Fill 'er with nice gear lube - I like Redline Shockproof Heavy (which is GL-5 - the horror!) myself, but there are plenty to choose from.

Best of luck to you.

Matt at CNW was talking about a needle roller conversion. That would have to be the best solution.

Stephen Hill said:

any other solutions to the problem would be appreciated.

Click to expand...

What "problem"?

How many sets of Commando swinging arm bushes have you (not with the assistance of any previous owners) actually managed to wear out?

I certainly wouldn't normally argue with CNW but I don't see needle bearings being an "improvement" in this application. The swingarm is not a rotating part and a bushing spreads the load better. The oil works fine and it's not as if you have to lubricate it frequently. I've never had oil leak out of the swingarm assembly other than the time I grease-gunned too much and blew out the end caps by stripping the threads on the long, thin screw.

It seems to me that if you really wanted needle bearings so as to reduce "maintenance," you would have to design a much larger diameter assembly. Otherwise you are just going to end up with little dents in the swingarm where the bearings bear against it.

I've been running the CNW-style needle bearing conversion on my 750 for the last 5 years/8000 miles. I haven't noticed any problems with it, but I suppose it's about time to pull the spindle and see if I have any "dents".

My experience with pumping in oil is that most of the oil is on the ground and all over the swingarm within a week. I guess I don't know the trick to obtain a good seal with those o-rings. :?

I do have the standard bushes in my 850. It's about due for its annual refill. With the new AN spindle, refilling is a pain because the machined area behind the oil nipple (i.e., counterbore in the spindle end) isn't deep enough and it takes forever to get any oil in.

Debby

mike996 said:

I don't see needle bearings being an "improvement" in this application.

Click to expand...

Got to agree here, tried it years ago and found the bushes lasted longer.

Dave.

debby said:

My experience with pumping in oil is that most of the oil is on the ground and all over the swingarm within a week. I guess I don't know the trick to obtain a good seal with those o-rings.

Click to expand...

A sintered bronze bush absorbs about 17% of its own volume of oil, so it will remain "self-lubricating" for quite a long service period once it has been lubricated, therefore there's no reason to try to keep excess oil trapped within the pivot and, as I've said before, I believe the seals are there more to keep dirt and water out rather than keep excess oil in.

Whether their idea was silly or not in retrospect, Norton decided to drill four 1/16 inch holes in the bottom part of the ends of the spindle.
They meant for the owners to get some lube down those holes.

The thicker the oil, the more likely it will NOT get down the holes and do the job of getting between the spindle and bushing.

Through the years, I have taken off many swing arms and have found completely dry, galled in place, spindle to bushings. And the owners dutifully kept the spindles full of oil.

This tells me no lube gets down the holes, so by filling up the spindle all one is doing is ensuring a steady supply of lube to slowly ooze out past the end caps, or just sit in their doing NOTHING.

Seems we have two choices: Take the spindle out once a year a lube it up with a good BMW type pressure spline lube, OR open up the holes bigger and use a light weight lube, like fork oil, in
a concerted effort to get lube down the holes.

ok, another choice, find some sort of very long hypodermic syringe that has a sharp downward bend the last 1/8 inch or so, and use that to inject oil directly down into the holes.

A couple of grease shots per season or less and good to go or store for decades.
RH is easy to see, it points straight out for access. LH photo harder to see zerk as in line with front inside cradle plate, it points out and back via 45' fitting, for access and an end on photo view.

hobot, I like what I see. Can you tell us a bit more about what you did? Are the bushes drilled in line with the zurk fittings? The swing arm swings, so how do you keep a path clear for the grease to get through the bush to the spindle? Details please.

Stephen

I agree, a grease fitting directly onto the bushings is probably a better idea than trying to keep some oil in that whole spindle just for the bushings. Looks like a new idea that works. Zerk fittings into the swing arm to grease the bushings. Coolio. It would involve taking off the swing arm I'm sure.

Dave
69S

hobot, I like what I see. Can you tell us a bit more about what you did? Are the bushes drilled in line with the zurk fittings? The swing arm swings, so how do you keep a path clear for the grease to get through the bush to the spindle? Details please. Stephen

Click to expand...

Yep, thank god I'm a country boy. Needle bearing excel in hi rpm loads but not so hot in rocking-rolling as no oil film pressure developed and limited path of wear on spindle and still got oil drool issue. All the hi load rock/roll tractor/impliments use plain bushes with grease.

Drill/tap through swing arm metal though its bush so grease can reach the spindle.
Flair bush hole into a spiral channel around bush ID to help spread grease and not just shoot out path of least resistance. Take a good look at area before taking apart, for access by grease hose and mark accordingly. I put zerks in mid bush.
I used a 90' zerk straight out on RH, a 45' zerk pointed 45' backwards on LH. Must then seal up the tiny oil holes in spindle or grease can get pumped in there leaving load surfaces under greased. I used JBWeld and made sure it was smoothed or slightly depressed before install. Give a pump or two a side every now and then, wipe off excess. Just don't forget about it as grease gets used up, dried up, pushed out too over time and ain't much space in there to hold much but what there is sticks around a whole lot longer than most all the rest of Commandoom. Not my idea, just smart enough to follow others wisdom's.

As I didn't know any better, I've been pumping good old fashioned axel grease into the rascal for about 12 years and 30+ thousand miles. I only realized it should have been oil the past year or so. When the manual said it was lubricated by oil, I thought there was a (insert wacky british engineering idea) that allowed the engine oil to get in there.
Little did I know that I was the wacky one.
Regardless, so far, so good. YMMV.

Vertigo, your practice is what me and others are trying to prevent ever being done
to a good functioning Commando. The spindle oil hoies are small on purpose to delay the full drain out so the bushes can retain some lingering oil for a season or so.
The tiny spindle oil holes will not pass enough grease to matter so most just bleeds out the end caps. This is how I found two spindles serviced and allowed spindle to so rust up and wear lips, first one broke my hand bonez on missed SLEDGE hammering, Pulse a heavy duty PU truck shock bolt puller till both the sledge and drift and the shock threads gave way before the spindle moved to matter. Runined swing arm. 2nd one when puller and sledge did not bugle spindle after a couple attempts I knew better by then - no hope at all - so cut apart swing are to remove cradle with swing arm end to a bull dozer shop whose hydrualic press read 22,000 lb/11 tons PSI before spindle moved then stayed over 10,000/5 tons PSi to extract it. I had to beat cradle back a bit even with it blocked pretty well. Both these spindle worked pretty darn good, just a hint of slack. So I double dog dare ya to try to remove youus some day. You may have lucked out more than me but only one way to know or just let it alone for others to deal with after your gone. Chain oiler hooked to spindle is great idea to preserve it but similar mess that causes this thread and about universal disconnecting of another Norton wisdom.

My MKII has a MKIIA swingarm, with felt wicks that absorb oil like the MKIII. Oil is added through the upper fixing bolt hole, and it promptly leaks out and dribbles down the engine mounting plates. The rediculous rubber "seals" may keep dirt and water out, but certainly don't keep oil in. Two years ago I decided to replace the bushings and spindle "just because", and upon disassembly found them to be perfect - like new.

140 wt added every 5000 miles or so works for me. It's messy, but it works.

Something is causing the Orings not to seal - a burr somewhere or something like that - or the little washer in the center is bad or missing. OR the long screw is not tight enough. I can tell you that the swing arm will stay perfectly dry when filled with 140 oil and none will leak at all if all the parts are in good shape. If my 850 swingarm can stay perfectly dry then there is no reason that all swingarms can't do the same. It used to leak but with new bushings/orings/washer and some cleaning of the inside surface of the swingarm outboard of the bushings to eliminate pitting/rough surface it stays totally dry externally.

Something is causing the Orings not to seal - a burr somewhere or something like that - or the little washer in the center is bad or missing. OR the long screw is not tight enough.

Click to expand...

There are no O-rings or long screw in the MKIIA swingarm. The seal is via rubber gaskets that act against the painted outside surfaces of the engine cradle. Drib... drib

Fortunately the felt wicks seem to do their job well.

Would have been really decent of Norton if they had simply made the end caps threaded onto the cradle ends.

Would seem a much better sealing mechanism than the goofy touchy unstable o rings under very light torque.

If I have a Mk I that the PO greased the swing arm and yet it works fine with no excess side movement, would I be well advised to clean out all of the grease, renew the O rings, and use gear oil from this point forward? Is there a strong possibility that I will have excess play when the grease is gone or is no play now a pretty good sign that I have caught it in time?