Gettin ready to rally
- Thread starter comnoz
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comnoz said:
I have actually cut out a set of pulleys and bought a little 5mm pitch belt. I will need to make an idler to use it. It seems pretty scary to think it will be running in hot oil and if it breaks the motor is going to be pretty bad.
I talked to the guys at gates and they didn't think it would be a good application either. They wanted much larger sprockets than could be fit under the cover. Jim[/quote]
Do we have any documented evidence of a cam chain failure here on the forum? INOA past? NOA past? What happened to a 10:1 compression engine "Combat" cam chain letting go? Bent valves? pooched guides? Smashed piston tops? Bent con rods? These are things happen on 1.8 VW diesels because of the interference fit. When the piston is at the top on a diesel the valves must be closed. What width did gates recommend? Could the belt be thicker as apposed to wider? Don’t get me wrong Jim, I am not trying to burst your bubble. To have like thinking minds hopscotch upon a better idea is a good thing. Yes?
Cheers,
Thomas
CNN
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I did a fairy deep look into chain substitutes ordering hard copy catalogs besides on line. There are dozens of belt types or hybrid belt chains, with knobs on a string or ladder like links, but all of them were too frail or close to limits for the width, heat and shock loads so gave up. That was over 5 yrs ago so maybe new materials and construction to check into but if engineers tell ya the same thing I found, ugh. Maybe if TS cover and oil feed spaced out? Cam belts definitely have shorter service interval than chains if ya search up the forums on chain vs cam belt, still way longer than 5000 mile the manual lists, like most us ignoring till ...
http://www.renold.com/Products/Transmis ... l-Ring.asp
http://www.renold.com/Products/Transmis ... l-Ring.asp
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Do we have any documented evidence of a cam chain failure here on the forum? INOA past? NOA past? What happened to a 10:1 compression engine "Combat" cam chain letting go? Bent valves? pooched guides? Smashed piston tops? Bent con rods? These are things happen on 1.8 VW diesels because of the interference fit. When the piston is at the top on a diesel the valves must be closed. What width did gates recommend? Could the belt be thicker as apposed to wider? Don’t get me wrong Jim, I am not trying to burst your bubble. To have like thinking minds hopscotch upon a better idea is a good thing. Yes?
Cheers,
Thomas
CNN[/quote]
No I have never seen a Norton cam chain break. The only real drawback I have seen with the Norton camchain is the fact that the backside of the chain that contacts the steel tensioner shoe wears flat and the tensioner gets grooves cut in it. That makes more metal going into the oil than I like to see.
Then of course you need to go through the camchain tensioning bit on a regular basis if you want the timing to stay steady and the engine to run quietly. Pulling the timing cover off for a look every 2 or 3 years is plenty for me. Adjusting the chain every 5000 miles isn't my idea of fun. Jim
Cheers,
Thomas
CNN[/quote]
No I have never seen a Norton cam chain break. The only real drawback I have seen with the Norton camchain is the fact that the backside of the chain that contacts the steel tensioner shoe wears flat and the tensioner gets grooves cut in it. That makes more metal going into the oil than I like to see.
Then of course you need to go through the camchain tensioning bit on a regular basis if you want the timing to stay steady and the engine to run quietly. Pulling the timing cover off for a look every 2 or 3 years is plenty for me. Adjusting the chain every 5000 miles isn't my idea of fun. Jim
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Stick to chain! was there a problem with the old set up?
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2 related problems with the chain, the need to tension as the chain worn and ,of more importance to the old AAU, the constant changes in the valve spring force direction sent it into a tissy and caused it to lock fully advanced or sent the timing all over the place. Electronic ignition is more resistant to the changes in the valve spring force and does not end up in pieces but having to remove the timing cover to check and adjust the cam chain tension is still a pain.
Does anyone know what was the exact unit that Kelly Cork used for his tensioner, it was a Nissan unit but which one.
Does anyone know what was the exact unit that Kelly Cork used for his tensioner, it was a Nissan unit but which one.
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Jim . Cut a window in the cover...? well within your skill.
No I have never seen a Norton cam chain break. The only real drawback I have seen with the Norton camchain is the fact that the backside of the chain that contacts the steel tensioner shoe wears flat and the tensioner gets grooves cut in it. That makes more metal going into the oil than I like to see.
Then of course you need to go through the camchain tensioning bit on a regular basis if you want the timing to stay steady and the engine to run quietly. Pulling the timing cover off for a look every 2 or 3 years is plenty for me. Adjusting the chain every 5000 miles isn't my idea of fun. Jim[/quote]
comnoz said:
No I have never seen a Norton cam chain break. The only real drawback I have seen with the Norton camchain is the fact that the backside of the chain that contacts the steel tensioner shoe wears flat and the tensioner gets grooves cut in it. That makes more metal going into the oil than I like to see.
Then of course you need to go through the camchain tensioning bit on a regular basis if you want the timing to stay steady and the engine to run quietly. Pulling the timing cover off for a look every 2 or 3 years is plenty for me. Adjusting the chain every 5000 miles isn't my idea of fun. Jim[/quote]
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comnoz said:I am beginning to like the cushioning that the chain gives to the cam drive.
I cooked this up last night. So far I like it. It uses hydraulic damping and the shoe is allowed .020 float to make up for tight spots in the chain.
It is nice to have my quiet engine back. [once the forged pistons get warm]
I have used synthetic for break-in on my own race engines and have seen no problems. I am not to the point I would recommend it however.
I still use conventional oil [10-30 Rotella] for the first run on the street motors I build. I go to synthetic after the first tank of fuel. Jim
Jim,
It looks like you have taken out some material from the timing boss where the guide pin lives for clearance? What material are you using that runs against the chain? Looks good.
Cheers
Thomas
CNN
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Jim,
It looks like you have taken out some material from the timing boss where the guide pin lives for clearance? What material are you using that runs against the chain? Looks good.
Cheers
Thomas
CNN[/quote]
I had already removed material from the guide pin boss for one of the earlier gear sets I had tried. A new chain would clear the boss without modifying it but when it stretches it would probably make contact.
The rubbing block is from a Nissan engine. The trick part is the valving inside the unit -made from parts scavenged from a hydraulic valve lifter. It allows the spring loaded rub block to move out unimpeded but it can only move in .020 before the valve closes and holds it in that position. With steady pressure it can move in very slowly as the trapped oil bleeds off. There is also a hole where you can insert a pin to unseat the check valve and collapse the tensioner fully. Jim
It looks like you have taken out some material from the timing boss where the guide pin lives for clearance? What material are you using that runs against the chain? Looks good.
Cheers
Thomas
CNN[/quote]
I had already removed material from the guide pin boss for one of the earlier gear sets I had tried. A new chain would clear the boss without modifying it but when it stretches it would probably make contact.
The rubbing block is from a Nissan engine. The trick part is the valving inside the unit -made from parts scavenged from a hydraulic valve lifter. It allows the spring loaded rub block to move out unimpeded but it can only move in .020 before the valve closes and holds it in that position. With steady pressure it can move in very slowly as the trapped oil bleeds off. There is also a hole where you can insert a pin to unseat the check valve and collapse the tensioner fully. Jim
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I ended up with a project with my fork seals. Both stanchions were bent. One at about .080 and one about .020. runout. Wonder how that happened. So one new tube and one straightened tube and a set of bushings and everything is happy again. Unfortunately I couldn't locate a set of the high quality seals to fit the KYBs so I had to use NOC's. I will have some of the good ones here when I have to do them over again in a couple years.
Did around 200 miles on the bike and so far the tensioner is working perfectly. The little inspection hole is handy for checking that. Jim
Did around 200 miles on the bike and so far the tensioner is working perfectly. The little inspection hole is handy for checking that. Jim
SteveMinning
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comnoz said:
Personally I think the persistent rumor that an engine won't break in properly with synthetic is an old wive's tale. Quite a few premium car manufacturers fill their engines with synthetic on the assembly line. I know for a fact that Porsche delivers their new engines with synthetic. Even Harley-Davidson fills their CVO bikes with synthetic. I have personally broken in a new Porsche with Mobil 1 0-40 synthetic and can attest that it broke in like every engine I've ever broken in. Fuel economy went from 25 mpg to 28 mpg over a 1,500 mile period.
It is my opinion that there's more hype and unsubstantiated claims for synthetic oil than practically any other automotive product that I know of (other than maybe Slick-50). Here are a couple of interesting websites that address myths about synthetic oil:
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Synthetics/Synthetic_Oils_FAQs.aspx
http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/top-7-urban-legends-about-motor-oil.html
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SteveM,
Are you trying to stir the pot? These old bikes were built with outdated technology, poor manufacturing quality. Current cars and motorcycles are completely different, although rebuilding a Norton with modern metallurgy and careful assembly might tolerate synthetic oil. Even detergent oil used to be a no-no for old bikes. I tried synthetic oil on an unrestored old Triumph and the gaskets leaked everywhere. I'll stick with conventional oil, motorcycle specific of course, at least to break in a new set of rings. Any of you oldtimers add talcum powder or rouge to the oil in a freshly rebuilt motor to break it in fast?
Are you trying to stir the pot? These old bikes were built with outdated technology, poor manufacturing quality. Current cars and motorcycles are completely different, although rebuilding a Norton with modern metallurgy and careful assembly might tolerate synthetic oil. Even detergent oil used to be a no-no for old bikes. I tried synthetic oil on an unrestored old Triumph and the gaskets leaked everywhere. I'll stick with conventional oil, motorcycle specific of course, at least to break in a new set of rings. Any of you oldtimers add talcum powder or rouge to the oil in a freshly rebuilt motor to break it in fast?
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christulin said:
Well -we used to do it at the GM dealership when people complained about oil consumption in new cars.....down the carb and then drive it like you stole it.
I still use Quick Seat from Total Seal. It says non-abrasive which I take to mean very fine abrasive. Jim
Hortons Norton
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Getting on the road in 6 hours, Should be in Wyoming by noon on Sat. WOOOO HOOOOOO!!!!!!!! :lol: Only 1,300 miles.
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Yes that is correct on on a visit to Nissan UK all the cars came off the production line and the rolling road test went up to 100mph, no running in required.
Difference is the surface finishes on modern engines is close or equal to a fully run in old britt so they can run out of the box on fully synthetic, our old clunkers use course honing etc and need to wear in for 1000 miles to get the rough edges knocked off, you need old dino oil to allow this to happen. Then after run in you can change to fully synthetic.
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