Genuine
- Thread starter john robert bould
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I called into a Norton supplier for Fork stanchions, The guy behind to counter asked if i wanted Genuine or Pattern..I had to ask to question.."whats the differance? " Responce was he plonked onto the counter two pairs , pointing at one set he said "those are genuine,and the others are pattern"
So again the same question..."whats the differance" the answer was the pair with a Norvil label are made in the English Midlands and the others ....NOT!
So My original posting .Genuine or pattern, Personaly if a replacement part is re-produced to a FIT for purpose standard that will provide safe and lasting service...thats good enough.
"Genuine" to the discription must sway the buyer into thinking he's getting something better, Chinese Indian stanchions s are sold in vast amounts on Ebay for 40-50% less.and will do the job...its how long ? is the question
I know for a fact the cheap imports have only a flash coat of chrome, [microns] where the "genuine" have .001 [one thousand of an inch] !
But Velocette have no chrome on the lower part...so does it matter!
So again the same question..."whats the differance" the answer was the pair with a Norvil label are made in the English Midlands and the others ....NOT!
So My original posting .Genuine or pattern, Personaly if a replacement part is re-produced to a FIT for purpose standard that will provide safe and lasting service...thats good enough.
"Genuine" to the discription must sway the buyer into thinking he's getting something better, Chinese Indian stanchions s are sold in vast amounts on Ebay for 40-50% less.and will do the job...its how long ? is the question
I know for a fact the cheap imports have only a flash coat of chrome, [microns] where the "genuine" have .001 [one thousand of an inch] !
But Velocette have no chrome on the lower part...so does it matter!
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L.A.B. said:
Genuine.
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john robert bould said:
So you're basing your argument on a certain Norvil supplier's sales pitch? Sigh.
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swooshdave said:
In that case, we can probably add crankshafts, cylinder heads, fuel tanks, instruments, auto advance unit, points assembly, brake calipers, front drum brake plate, various side covers, handlebar switch assemblies, shocks, as well as many pre-71 parts and some 850 "A" parts to the presently unavailable from AN list.
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Funny Old World...
I just waded through this after having posed a question (in all innocence, honest) about fork stanchions!
I'm now approaching an age where I can legitimately lay claim to having 'been there, seen it', but modesty forbids... well, mostly.
I served an engineering apprenticeship in a large automotive manufacturer who made pretty much all the components in-house.
The machines I operated were the finest quality available when they were bought...to make tanks in order to defeat Hitler. One machine dated from the nineteenth centrury - no kidding.
From a batch of 120 it could take up to 60 attempts before one was passable through Inspection. These were Genuine, Original parts, and now probably also 'incredibly rare'.
I recall a story about a boring machine in the Norton factory requiring a plank to be held against the carriage to maintain size. It must have been one of our cast-offs :roll:
Having progressed through Engineering in many forms, I've seen the transition to CNC manufacture, and the onward progress into bought-out, where we did nothing more than manage external suppliers for things which go faster than Commandos before the wheels leave the floor
.
Even with the standard aerospace requirement for 100% inspection we had plenty to keep us occupied dealing with issues, and it explains why a truck oil filter costs a fiver and an aerospace equivalent costs $200.
The manpower and infrastructure required to guarantee 'absolute' quality just doesn't bear thinking about.
Fullauto is a prime example of non-genuine being the benchmark, and people like Andy Molnar in the UK being another case in point - although he trades under the Manx banner, I know his guys don't need a plank to make a decent barrel.
Do I get a discount on the new cylinder head now? :wink:
I just waded through this after having posed a question (in all innocence, honest) about fork stanchions!
I'm now approaching an age where I can legitimately lay claim to having 'been there, seen it', but modesty forbids... well, mostly.
I served an engineering apprenticeship in a large automotive manufacturer who made pretty much all the components in-house.
The machines I operated were the finest quality available when they were bought...to make tanks in order to defeat Hitler. One machine dated from the nineteenth centrury - no kidding.
From a batch of 120 it could take up to 60 attempts before one was passable through Inspection. These were Genuine, Original parts, and now probably also 'incredibly rare'.
I recall a story about a boring machine in the Norton factory requiring a plank to be held against the carriage to maintain size. It must have been one of our cast-offs :roll:
Having progressed through Engineering in many forms, I've seen the transition to CNC manufacture, and the onward progress into bought-out, where we did nothing more than manage external suppliers for things which go faster than Commandos before the wheels leave the floor
. Even with the standard aerospace requirement for 100% inspection we had plenty to keep us occupied dealing with issues, and it explains why a truck oil filter costs a fiver and an aerospace equivalent costs $200.
The manpower and infrastructure required to guarantee 'absolute' quality just doesn't bear thinking about.
Fullauto is a prime example of non-genuine being the benchmark, and people like Andy Molnar in the UK being another case in point - although he trades under the Manx banner, I know his guys don't need a plank to make a decent barrel.
Do I get a discount on the new cylinder head now? :wink:
SteveA
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This is truly an exchange that could go one forever.... :?
There is no doubt that a number of volume manufacturer of motor vehicles in the 1970s worked to the standards they felt needed to stay in business, even if in the end this was proven to be woefully inadequate when they went out of business at the same time that the market itself grew.
Small volume manufacturers supplying the knowledgeable enthusiast market can spend time and deliver better quality, tolerances, materials and finishes etc., and will subsequently have to charge more or go into the same business black hole. The best survive and have a strong band of followers, some who are less than best at manufacturing but good at marketing also survive (marketing can include, 'we race and win using these parts', which may ignore how often they change the said parts and that their contracted rider is a world class professional).
This forum can assist by identifying to others suppliers we find fall well short, but it is too easy for us all to be coloured by personal experiences, good or bad, which are not shared by others.
So, in that suppliers shop when the customer is told, 'this one is Made in England, and this is not', this should not be accepted as a statement of quality at all, mike the thing, look at chrome depth, is it inside manufacturing tolerances?, just about, or to the best standard possible, of course to do that you need data!
Most of us are not in a position to do this, through that lack of data, or knowledge, skills and experience, but that does not mean we should just accept stupid and meaningless statements.....
Since the supplier in question is located in the English Midlands....'This one is made in the English Midlands' could indeed just as easily mean 'I knocked it out in the back shed from a bit of scafold pole on a machine with a plank of wood holding up one part and I hand painted it silver'.....'and this one is not' could mean it was made in Italy by one of the finest fork manufacturers in the business, but to a lousy specification written in the English Midlands!
The best insurance any of us can have is a knowledge of who is supplying our needs, meaning can we find them in the future and will we have any come back if we find problems....and surely a search on ebay will never guarantee that....
So the lowest quality parts we ever buy will probably be through self induced and possibly misguided attempts to 'save' money...
There is no doubt that a number of volume manufacturer of motor vehicles in the 1970s worked to the standards they felt needed to stay in business, even if in the end this was proven to be woefully inadequate when they went out of business at the same time that the market itself grew.
Small volume manufacturers supplying the knowledgeable enthusiast market can spend time and deliver better quality, tolerances, materials and finishes etc., and will subsequently have to charge more or go into the same business black hole. The best survive and have a strong band of followers, some who are less than best at manufacturing but good at marketing also survive (marketing can include, 'we race and win using these parts', which may ignore how often they change the said parts and that their contracted rider is a world class professional).
This forum can assist by identifying to others suppliers we find fall well short, but it is too easy for us all to be coloured by personal experiences, good or bad, which are not shared by others.
So, in that suppliers shop when the customer is told, 'this one is Made in England, and this is not', this should not be accepted as a statement of quality at all, mike the thing, look at chrome depth, is it inside manufacturing tolerances?, just about, or to the best standard possible, of course to do that you need data!
Most of us are not in a position to do this, through that lack of data, or knowledge, skills and experience, but that does not mean we should just accept stupid and meaningless statements.....
Since the supplier in question is located in the English Midlands....'This one is made in the English Midlands' could indeed just as easily mean 'I knocked it out in the back shed from a bit of scafold pole on a machine with a plank of wood holding up one part and I hand painted it silver'.....'and this one is not' could mean it was made in Italy by one of the finest fork manufacturers in the business, but to a lousy specification written in the English Midlands!
The best insurance any of us can have is a knowledge of who is supplying our needs, meaning can we find them in the future and will we have any come back if we find problems....and surely a search on ebay will never guarantee that....
So the lowest quality parts we ever buy will probably be through self induced and possibly misguided attempts to 'save' money...
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I dont think for one moment that the Italian Best fork producers are making stanchions for Nortons..New Nortons mayby, our old ones, 100% NOT!..Based upon the price they came from india or china produced by 10 year olds...well at £40 a pair...? The defence rests.
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looks like my basement workshop.
JD
JD
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I hope those are safety boots in the fore-ground, ?
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the penitent and remorseful AntrimMan does say, in a much subdued and more tolerant tone...
fun aside, actually everyone has to start somewhere. I'm sorry to take such a cheap shot at the individuals in the snap.
The more civilized have never been against people trying to survive.
I know I know, I get the picture and the intent.
We gits what we pays fer.
If there wasn't a demand there would be no cheap knock offs.
BTW Brown & Sharpe's foundry, right down on Promenade St., though it never (rarely) had conscious individuals lying on the floor, was not a whole lot different in atmosphere at least, and many times was worse. We all start somewhere.
All the best.
fun aside, actually everyone has to start somewhere. I'm sorry to take such a cheap shot at the individuals in the snap.
The more civilized have never been against people trying to survive.
I know I know, I get the picture and the intent.
We gits what we pays fer.
If there wasn't a demand there would be no cheap knock offs.
BTW Brown & Sharpe's foundry, right down on Promenade St., though it never (rarely) had conscious individuals lying on the floor, was not a whole lot different in atmosphere at least, and many times was worse. We all start somewhere.
All the best.
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SteveA said:
Absolutely and thankfully we have retailers like Andover,Norvil,Britbits who really know their stuff!
SteveA said:
Possibly, but we shouldn't generalise. You can't compare a 2012 Sony TV with one made in the 1970's. Nor can you compare (for instance) a Genuine Lucas Electrical product with an aftermarket product made in 2012, using 2012 machining,tooling,technology,CNC etc. The original product will probably be much more expensive, but which will be better quality?
As Andover Norton state on their own excellent website, when marketing their Con-rod bearing shells :-
Sometimes Original is best, but if improved technology is available it is wise to make use of it!
So, new production using improved technology can be better quality than original, and probably cheaper too!
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