Fuels and octane for vintage critters

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Ah the taste of siphoned hi test ethyl lead. Have a lookie here for some scope

http://www.klemmvintage.com/gasolines.htm

About Aviation Fuels - Aviation gasoline (or "av gas") is blended specifically for use in small aircraft. It's also commonly used by many high performance two-stroke owners because of it's high stated octane rating (usually 100oct) and the relatively low price compared to racing fuel. But it’s importance to understand some details about Av-gas.

Avgas octane is rated on a different scale than gasoline's intended for ground level use. What is 100 octane "av", is not necessarily 100 octane "ground level". Besides this, there is also a big chemical difference. Normal ground level race fuels are made up of gas molecules that have a "light end" and a "heavy end". The light end of the molecule ignites easily and burns quickly with a low temperature flame (as a piece of thin newspaper would burn). The heavy end of the molecule is not so easily ignited, but it burns with a much more intense heat (as an oak log would). This heavy end of the gasoline molecule is responsible for the hotter, more powerful part of the combustion process.

Small aircraft are constructed as very weight conscious vehicles. That's because their somewhat weak engines often have difficulty taking off with any extra weight. To help reduce this weight problem, aviation gasolines are blended with no heavy molecule end. This makes a gallon of avgas weigh measurably less than a gallon of ground level fuel. Since small plane engines turn very low rpms and produce so little power, the omission of the heavy end is not a significant horsepower issue. Running 100% Avgas in a vintage two-stroke is not a good idea because there is a measurable loss of power resulting from the absent “heavy molecule ends”
 
Re: Fuels and ocatne for vintage critters

Fuels and octane for vintage critters

Their gasoline grades worth knowing.
http://www.2strokeheads.com/tech-octane-detonation.htm
 
Re: Fuels and ocatne for vintage critters

Small aircraft are constructed as very weight conscious vehicles. That's because their somewhat weak engines often have difficulty taking off with any extra weight. To help reduce this weight problem, aviation gasolines are blended with no heavy molecule end. This makes a gallon of avgas weigh measurably less than a gallon of ground level fuel. Since small plane engines turn very low rpms and produce so little power, the omission of the heavy end is not a significant horsepower issue. Running 100% Avgas in a vintage two-stroke is not a good idea because there is a measurable loss of power resulting from the absent “heavy molecule ends”

That's bollocks!
 
Re: Fuels and ocatne for vintage critters

Ok i wondered about that weight statement too so searched it to find most references aircraft use over lap with auto gasoline ie: ~6 to 6.6 lb per US gal. Regardless fuel weight ain't the issue of concern in our Nortons and plenty like avgas long term. Ethanol 10% by weight would weight a bit less for the gasoline displaced.

Avgas 100LL
It weighs approximately 6.02 lbs per US gallon ( approx 0.72 kg/liter) at "standard temperature" - defined as 15 degrees celsius (59 degrees Fahrenheit). Its density increases to 6.4 lbs per US gallon (0.77 kg/l) at -40 C (also -40 F) and 5.9 lbs per gallon ( 0.7kg/l) at 38 degrees C (100 degrees F).

Automobile regular no lead without ethanol.
The density of gasoline depends on a number of factors, with the octane being one of the most important. The higher the octane, the lower the weight - 100 octane (or higher) racing gas is substantially lighter than regular unleaded, for instance.
The book I use here at the office lists the density of "gasoline" at 46.81 lbs/ft^3 and the density of "natural gasoline" at 42.42 lbs/ft^3 (both at 60 degrees F). I think that's probably why we're coming up with different numbers. As far as what "natural gasoline" is, I have no idea - perhaps gasoline before all the additives are put in? Anyway, 6.2 pounds per gallon is a good overall figure for the unleaded regular we get at the pump.
 
Re: Fuels and ocatne for vintage critters

I have access to av-gas and I put about a cup/2.5-3 gallons of pump 93. This may raise the octane rating, but I blend it for the lead. The valve seats in the motorcycle of the '70s went from seeing highly leaded pump fuels to no lead; not exactly a secret, but most motorcycle engine designers (not all, certainly) didn't rush to highly austenitic steel valve seats. The small amount of lead in av-gas is cheap tonic for the valve seats.
 
Re: Fuels and ocatne for vintage critters

I run 100LL avgas in all of my vintage two strokes (dirt bikes only, as it is not legal for road use :wink: ). They run great on it!

My Nortons love it too, although since it is not legal for road use of course I would never use it except at the track. :wink:
 
Re: Fuels and ocatne for vintage critters

Norton valve seats were hard enough nothing had to change to run no lead. Special additives were used in the leaded days to keep lead deposits to a minimum so might let us know on something what head looks like inside on avgas mixture. If not tuned and throttled up to get detonation then why bother? Of course safer if ya don't know to fill with excess octane rated gas.
 
ok Hobot, interesting read

but help me understand what significance this has for our Nortons?

your article talks about the avi gas benefit to two strokes, fine but our bikes are not two strokes, so?

my Commando has run on medium grade 89 or whatever unleaded for decades just fine with no ill effects

I may be wrong but is not the reason to run higher octane is if you are putting in in a high compression motor?

so maybe Combats at 10 to 1 should run premium, but my 8.5 to 1 does not knock on even on regular unleaded, I think that one says 86 on the pump

Hobot, is your point in posting this to encourage the use of aviation gas in Commanos or what?
 
Just for the interest and scopes of view on fuels, while trying to find info on engines so highly tuned they run with some ongoing detonation on purpose. Racers of course only care to last one race if it lets them win, so not posting to say its good to operate that close to limits w/o some risky reasons. I had to run 87 octane in Trixie factory Combat so much in hi summer heat 500 to 2000 ft attitudes w/o any hint of ping/knock nor evidence on couple head removals I don't give it a 2nd thought. I would of thought with the extra oil in chamber pollution with rings ground down it would of lowered 87 octane to about dieseling but it didn't. Maybe if I geared Trixie up 15% higher like Peel she'd ping at times but sticking with the 19T for keeping her rpms up nice w/o trying to go real fast or hard. I did try to wring her neck out to see what she'd do or blow up, half dozen times, WOT for like 30 min a leg up over 115 mph but that was on 91 octane and even good Combat power is not very much for me after the likes of SuVee which felt like a dragged down dog compared to Ms Peel prime set up. I did a survey last yr or two on 3 lists asking for any reports of detonation and only got a few from those who found obvious problems like coked up or mis timed and a few racers, but other wise seems Nortons are darn resistant to detonation to matter. Peel is the only thing on my mind to seek better fuels for longer WOT runs the heat soak can build up.
 
Re: Fuels and ocatne for vintage critters

Snorton74 said:

Sure, I get that. To be politically correct lead should be consigned to its place on the periodic chart, and become a historic element; except for batteries, or course, until Li technologies can produce a high density storage medium that won't burn down our Norton time machines and cause an even larger ecological disaster...And should we disparage general aviation for salting us with a steady rain down of lead effluent?? When you think about global warming has anyone every considered the effect of 15,000 daily jet flights in the 35,000 foot range burning tank cars of jet fuel?

Never the less, the valve seats in a Norton (also other pre lead designed 4-stroke engines), when run hard or lean, become molten to a degree that the lead will mellow out; it may mean the difference between a top end refresh in a season and those that run a few hundred miles every year for 10 years.

I doubt that most people on this forum depend on their Nortons', I am sure that most people on this forum are interested in prolonging the useful life of these amazingly beautiful examples of British engineering/endeavor. A bit of lead here or there is a good thing.
 
Lead or not is nothing to do with political correctness.

But it is interesting that there has been a statistical link between the removal of lead from fuel in the US and a drop in crime since the 70s
 
Until I get a metal type tank, I'm using avgas, but the stuff I get is BP 110LL. It sure seems to run good, evaporates fast and has a nice odor to it also. I can't imagine the few gallons I use a year compares to what any airplane uses. They probably spill more than I use.
 
It's 100 octane here, I suppose because of our higher altitude. The pump gas is a couple of points lower across the board too.

+1 on the avgas evaporating fast! I spilled a little filling up the cans the other day. It was gone in seconds! I couldn't believe it.

What smells good is the castor oil mix I run in the dirt bikes. I've been running Maxima 927 on advice from the guys on the Maico board. It's a blend of degummed castor and synthetic oils. The exhaust smells fantastic!
 
I can buy 92 Octane, corn-free, gas right at the pump. The bike runs good on it. My old 2-stroke outboards love it too. Yesterday was one of those fall days, it was 60 degrees and sunny with high enough humidity to steam up the inside of your visor if you werent moving. The bike loved that too! Something about cool and humid seems to agree with these beasts.

Russ
 
I know nothing of the tech side of it , but my 920 with a bit of head work runs noticeably better with some avgas in the tank . I have not tried race fuel , so cannot compare .
 
I have found on the dyno that av gas makes about 8 to 10 percent less horsepower than B32 race fuel in a high compression race engine. I have not done a direct comparison on a low compression motor but I suspect the results would be a little less obvious.

Norton valve seats are good enough to last at least 30,000 miles between regrinds with unleaded fuel if they are cut right in the first place. The stock seats in a MK3 -850 are a bit softer and may not last quite as long -especially if a HP cam is used.

Even if specially hardened seats are used there are no hardened valves available for a Norton to take advantage of the hard seats.

Lead is great for motors, not so much for the environment. Too bad there is no such thing as a non-toxic replacement for lead. Just snake oil substitutes.

Without lead or alcohol for an octain booster what are they using to get those high octain numbers? Things that are probably worse. [carcinogens such as benzine?] Jim
 
"I can buy 92 Octane, corn-free, gas right at the pump. The bike runs good on it.".

Same here. Sunoco racing fuel in these parts. I use it in my bikes and my restored 85' Westfalia and they run like champs. They even have it 100 octane. It's bad enough were still burning dinosaur bones, no need to add more lead to the environment too. Avgas does evaporate quickly, but it also absorbs really quickly. Guess where it gets absorbed? Just sayin....
 
Snorton74 said:
"I can buy 92 Octane, corn-free, gas right at the pump. The bike runs good on it.".

Same here. Sunoco racing fuel in these parts. I use it in my bikes and my restored 85' Westfalia and they run like champs. They even have it 100 octane. It's bad enough were still burning dinosaur bones, no need to add more lead to the environment too. Avgas does evaporate quickly, but it also absorbs really quickly. Guess where it gets absorbed? Just sayin....

I keep trying to put a mast and a sail on my Commando, but so far it hasn't been a very satisfying ride.
 
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