Fuel Injection Kit for Norton?

http://www.ecotrons.com/400cc_to_800cc_ ... I_kit.html



400cc to 800cc EFI kit @ $599 USD

Sure you'd have to modify somethings, like an intake manifold, but this think might be feasible. It seems pretty flexible and programable.

I'd sure like to hear a comment or two from comnoz...

FWIW there is a long thread on a successful DR650 adaptation by a very sharp rider/mechanic at http://drriders.com/topic2824.html that has a lot of great info on making the generic kit work....his work eventually resulted in a DR650 specific kit...many pages in the thread but well worth reading to learn what is required from start to finish.

swooshdave said:

...but this think might be feasible.

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Kick starting will give you a lot of head scratching on this one. The sensors usually need a critical speed over a critical minimum time to give a sufficiently stable signal, especially if it is sequential injection which needs a cam sensor. The simple pickups on most electronic ignition kits do not offer the kind of characteristics an modern ECU needs.


Tim

Tintin said:

swooshdave said:

...but this think might be feasible.

Click to expand...

Kick starting will give you a lot of head scratching on this one. The sensors usually need a critical speed over a critical minimum time to give a sufficiently stable signal, especially if it is sequential injection which needs a cam sensor. The simple pickups on most electronic ignition kits do not offer the kind of characteristics an modern ECU needs.


Tim

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In a PM, which I'm pretty sure Jim won't mind me sharing:

comnoz said:

Dave,
I have seen the site and played with some kits that were similar. They may be made to work with an electric start bike. The units I have experimented with were not capable of working with kickstart.

If the crank position sensor is very low resolution [ie 2 to 4 pulses per revolution] then it is possible to kickstart the bike but then the low resolution makes them run poorly as they can not accurately predict engine speed change. Port fuel injection becomes impossible leaving throttle body injection as the only substitute.

If the resolution is good {say 30 to 60 pulses per revolution] then you can get good performance but it takes 3 to 5 steady revolutions for the processor to sync with the crank trigger and produce the first correctly timed spark. Unfortunately a Norton kickstarter only provides 2 to 3 revolutions per kick.

I got around this by using dual crank pickups- one low resolution for starting and one high resolution that takes over when the engine speed reaches 900rpm. Of course that makes the system much more complicated. Jim

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A friend of mine started the company which builds the Motec EMS. He said that when he was in Europe he fitted a Honda with the EMS, and t he injector was simply fiited into the bellmouth of the standard carburettor. The bike then cut a couple of seconds off the lap times.
All that was done back then was to turn off the regular fuel supply and switch on the EMS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LnNP7mw7XY

It looks like this kit is throttle body injection only. No ignition control. It would add fuel near the throttle plate where it is mixed with the air similar to how a single carb would. You then have a "wet flow" manifold and the fuel mixture that makes it to each cylinder is going to be dependent on the manifolds ability to direct the same amount of fuel to each cylinder.

It would use a low resolution crank sensor- likely one pulse for each injection event. This would make individual port fuel injection and a dry flow manifold difficult to control.

Port fuel injection with no spark control will show little- if any- performance advantage over a carburetor.

Port fuel injection adds the fuel at the intake valve and all the fuel that is injected is used on that stroke. Therefore the amount of fuel needs to be calculated for each individual power stroke from the amount of air that is trapped in the cylinder on that induction stroke. The amount of air in the cylinder is found by measuring the induction pulse that travels down the intake runner near BDC. It is measured for a few milliseconds once every induction event and known as timed map sampling.

To use port fuel injection you need a high resolution crank signal- usually 30 to 60 pulses per revolution- to provide the ability to predict the acceleration rate. The system I have been using also provides ignition control with 3D timing control and predictive advance. That means it uses the amount of air trapped in the cylinder along with the predicted RPM to provide a spark at the correct time instead of just using the last measured RPM to time the spark without taking into account the amount of engine load.

If the resolution is good {say 30 to 60 pulses per revolution] then you can get good performance but it takes 3 to 5 steady revolutions for the processor to sync with the crank trigger and produce the first correctly timed spark. Unfortunately a Norton kickstarter only provides 2 to 3 revolutions per kick.

I got around this by using dual crank pickups- one low resolution for starting and one high resolution that takes over when the engine speed reaches 900rpm. Of course all this makes the system much more complicated. Jim

I suppose I could paint the rig black and use it in historic races ?

comnoz said:

it takes 3 to 5 steady revolutions for the processor to sync with the crank trigger and produce the first correctly timed spark.

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+1. Electric start only

Interesting stuff! was thinking about this and wonder if it would be feasible to wire a circuit (with a pushbutton, a relay, a timer, etc...) parallel to the ECU so the injector could squirt a small amount fuel into the inlet before kickstarting and if that might help, sort of a substitute for the tickler on the Amals...then once the engine fired the ECU would maybe get a good enough signal to function properly. FWIW am starting on a Megasquirt ECU installation in my car soon and will no doubt learn a lot and maybe try a Norton project if it all works out...

bluto said:

Interesting stuff! was thinking about this and wonder if it would be feasible to wire a circuit (with a pushbutton, a relay, a timer, etc...) parallel to the ECU so the injector could squirt a small amount fuel into the inlet before kickstarting and if that might help, sort of a substitute for the tickler on the Amals...then once the engine fired the ECU would maybe get a good enough signal to function properly. FWIW am starting on a Megasquirt ECU installation in my car soon and will no doubt learn a lot and maybe try a Norton project if it all works out...

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I am sure it could be done- as long as you are doing fuel only. You would have to use alpha N. [throttle position/rpm only] You would need spark from a conventional ignition. Jim

What does this kit use for a fuel pump? TBI requires around 40 PSI? Not that I would want to do this to mine, just curious.

MikeG said:

What does this kit use for a fuel pump? TBI requires around 40 PSI? Not that I would want to do this to mine, just curious.

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Shown in the image above... looks like the standard fare automotiveish low-buck stuff :?:

I see a pressure regulator and a TBI/injector unit but no pump??

MikeG said:

I see a pressure regulator and a TBI/injector unit but no pump??

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Above the T-pipes in the lower right.

MikeG said:

I see a pressure regulator and a TBI/injector unit but no pump??

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You know, looks like a beer can but without a label... NOW do you see it? :lol:

The 9" monchromatic CRT monitor there at work may be limiting you....

I think the pump is the cylindrical unit on the right labeled "Fuel Pump".

Ken

NOW I see the big picture! Once I opened the link....

you having to much BEER with that chowda :lol:

MikeG said:

NOW I see the big picture! Once I opened the link....

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bill said:

you having to much BEER with that chowda :lol:

MikeG said:

NOW I see the big picture! Once I opened the link....

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It IS a Holiday, after all, a malt beverage with lunch is always a good choice! :mrgreen:

It's a big picture, easily cut off.