Front Wheel

Mart UK said:
Thanks. I read that topic yesterday and didn't understand it, but it contributed to deciding against 3x1. It definitely makes more sense now and will help. Do you know the difference between MC275 and MC288? I ordered 288.
Click to expand...

MC275 is a pre Mk3 disc front rim for brake on the right. (afaik) (Nipple hole ID might come into it also)
 
Mart UK said:
Do you know the difference between MC275 and MC288? I ordered 288.
Click to expand...

No, I don't.
The MC275 was the pre-Mk3 disc rim and therefore must have been reversed when fitted to the early Mk3 disc front wheel but it is still WM2 1x1 and the rim offset has to be the same.

Edit: ...And all pre-Mk3 front disc rim and Mk3 front rim nipple holes are 0.300" diameter.
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andover-norton.co.uk

Motorcycle parts and spares for Norton motorbikes - Genuine Andover Norton Spare Parts - Andover Norton Motorcycles Parts - Original Andover Norton Parts

Motorcycle parts and spares for Andover Norton motorbikes: Andover Norton manufactures and supplies all Genuine Factory Spare Parts for Norton motorcycles built before 2002.
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The early Mk3 rear rim was MC287 and MC289 later but once again I don't know what the actual difference is as both are WM2, 3x1.
 
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Hi,

Spoke pattern aside, is the rest of the front wheel drawing accurate, particularly the order of assembly of the components on the axle? Should I expect item 37, felt seal housing washer, to stay in place within the hub?

Also, are both of the two felt seal washers (#18), adjacent/stacked together, and housed in #37?

Thanks.
 
If I remember correctly there is only the one felt seal in the MK3 hub on the disc side (as the other bearing 12, is a rubber sealed bearing in the MK3 hub) and the disc side felt is retained by the dished washer 37.

The only loose items should be the two dust caps/spacers 16 and 19.
 
Well, I spent all day on it! But that did include getting the tyre and tube off the old wheel, breaking it down and polishing the hub. The new rim and old hub are now laced. The nipples are snug with the rim, but I've not yet started truing the wheel, nor getting the offset right. It doesn't look very true at the moment and the outside spokes have a slight arc to them.

I think the only thing I did wrong (so far!), is judging which hub hole to start the 2nd round of inners (the offside). As they're not directly in line with the other side of the hub. It was 50:50 and i guessed wrong. By the time I'd finished the 1st row of outers (on the disc side) it was clear the offside inners looked too long, so i had to undo the outers and that round of inners, to move them round one hole. How I laughed!

Will start again tomorrow. It's definitely something that takes a bit of practice!
 
Mart UK said:
Will start again tomorrow. It's definitely something that takes a bit of practice!
Click to expand...

The Commando front disc wheel isn't the easiest to build due to the offset and there was a factory procedure, below.

Obviously for Mk3, "right" hand will be left hand and vice versa.
_________________________________________________

"The spoking arrangement of the disc brake type of front wheel requires periodic attention to correct possible loss of spoke tension. To eliminate the need for regular attention, the following technique which is now applied to all disc brake wheels at the factory should be undertaken at the earliest opportunity (prior to delivery where possible):

1) With all spokes lightly tensioned, tighten left hand side inboard spokes.
2) Tighten left hand side outboard spokes.
3) As shown in the illustration below, set the left hand side inboard spokes straight (shaded heavily) by tapping the bowed portion of the spokes with a 1/2lb. (.225Kg) hammer and drift 3" (76.2mm) from the centre of the spoke head.

Front Wheel


4) Retighten the left hand side inboard spokes.
5) Tighten the right hand side inboard spokes.
6) Tighten the right hand side outboard spokes.
7) Recheck wheel for truth and align as necessary.
Realignment of the left side inboard spokes as directed will tension the wheels and minimise spoke deflection, making further periodic checking of tension unnecessary."
 
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Best to get the rim as close to running true as possible without applying any tension to the spokes. This extra effort at the start will make it easier overall but it is very tempting to get it nearly true and start tensioning early, this will end up with the spokes having tensions that vary too much. Also with the disc wheel tension only the disc side first and pull the rim over the offset, the non disc side spokes will pull the rim back easily as they are tensioned due to their angle. The hammer tip is a good one to follow.
 
mdt-son said:
While dimples are 1x1, I suggest defining holes and spoke pattern to be 2x2.

- Knut
Click to expand...
There are 4 different types of dimple, one after the other on the rim. Each dimple type is repeated in the same order, after the 4th dimple. So it is a pattern of 4 unique shapes repeated around the wheel. It creates groupings of 4 spokes. I would call that 4x1, or 1x4 :)
 
Mart UK said:
There are 4 different types of dimple, one after the other on the rim. Each dimple type is repeated in the same order, after the 4th dimple. So it is a pattern of 4 unique shapes repeated around the wheel. It creates groupings of 4 spokes. I would call that 4x1, or 1x4 :)
Click to expand...

I think perhaps what Knut means by...:
mdt-son said:
I suggest defining holes and spoke pattern to be 2x2.
Click to expand...

...is the cross-2 spoke pattern where one spoke crosses two others between hub and rim.
 
L.A.B. said:
The Commando front disc wheel isn't the easiest to build due to the offset and there was a factory procedure, below.

Obviously for Mk3, "right" hand will be left hand and vice versa.
_________________________________________________

"The spoking arrangement of the disc brake type of front wheel requires periodic attention to correct possible loss of spoke tension. To eliminate the need for regular attention, the following technique which is now applied to all disc brake wheels at the factory should be undertaken at the earliest opportunity (prior to delivery where possible):

1) With all spokes lightly tensioned, tighten left hand side inboard spokes.
2) Tighten left hand side outboard spokes.
3) As shown in the illustration below, set the left hand side inboard spokes straight (shaded heavily) by tapping the bowed portion of the spokes with a 1/2lb. (.225Kg) hammer and drift 3" (76.2mm) from the centre of the spoke head.

Front Wheel


4) Retighten the left hand side inboard spokes.
5) Tighten the right hand side inboard spokes.
6) Tighten the right hand side outboard spokes.
7) Recheck wheel for truth and align as necessary.
Realignment of the left side inboard spokes as directed will tension the wheels and minimise spoke deflection, making further periodic checking of tension unnecessary."
Click to expand...
Blimey. Taking a hammer to my wheel!. I've got it nearly true, within 1mm laterally and vertically. But the Weld joint gives a bobble, which I'm ignoring. I started from each nipple just being finger tight. So far the disc side offset is 3/16" too little.

So, I'm probably at the stage to get the hammer out! However, I don't have a spoke torque wrench. Any tips on how to do it without? If it can only be done safely with a spoke torque wrench, the thought I've had is try to drill a central hole in my spoke spanner, put a nut and bolt in it (tighter than the max 50 inch/lbs) and put a socket on my torque wrench, using the wrench onto the bolt at 90 degrees to the centre line of the spoke wrench.
 
Rotate the wheel and let a spanner touch the spokes, you want a ringing sound with the tone being similar, dead sounding spokes are typically too loose. On this wheel the tone will be different disc to non disc side due to the higher tension on the disc side.
 
Mart UK said:
There are 4 different types of dimple, one after the other on the rim. Each dimple type is repeated in the same order, after the 4th dimple. So it is a pattern of 4 unique shapes repeated around the wheel. It creates groupings of 4 spokes. I would call that 4x1, or 1x4 :)
Click to expand...
Dimples are oriented in different directions, not just left or right? Are you sure? This is most unusual. If so, I wonder how they made oriented dimples.
Oriented cold shaping would be nearly impossible, maybe they used induction heating.

I have a rim made by Devon Rim Company for Norton F/W hubs. Dimples are either left or right of the bead centerline but still oriented radially.
Drilled holes may be angled relative to the radial beam through the dimple's centre.

Anyone want to comment on this?

-Knut

Edit: Radial dimples are clearly shown in the video in entry #75. At least two of the punching cylinders will do the left-/right-handed dimples.
 
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Dimple holes are pierced/punched ie a round rod die going through the rim into a round hole die.

This is a rim being dimpled and pierced.

 
Mart UK said:
There are 4 different types of dimple, one after the other on the rim. Each dimple type is repeated in the same order, after the 4th dimple. So it is a pattern of 4 unique shapes repeated around the wheel. It creates groupings of 4 spokes. I would call that 4x1, or 1x4
Click to expand...

The dimples are normally either left or right-handed. The difference between alternating dimples on one side are the hole positions which could perhaps give the impression that the four are different shapes.
 
the dimple pattern on modern rims is slightly different to Original Dunlop / Jones rims
modern replacement rims have the dimple pattern staggered slightly offset to the centre line of the rim this is where the confusion on spoke pattern 2x2 1x1 comes from
OE rims have a more pronounced pattern with dimple holes further offset to the rim centre line a 2x2 will have groups of two holes pierced either side of the centre line look at a 3 x 1 Dunlop rim three holes on one side of the well in a straight line and one offset to the other side which are very pronounced in comparison to a replacement rim

modern replacement rims are pierced in the revised configuration for ease of manufacture they can then be machine pressed / punched where the original rims were all done by hand
in a fly press which was very labour intensive process

As a result of the slight differential in rim piercing it alters the spoke length slightly , most suppliers now provide spoke sets at a corrected length for modern replacement rims with revised hole piercing
often plus or minus a few mm from OEM specs to match the revised rims which are commercially available today
 
Mart UK said:
Well, I spent all day on it! But that did include getting the tyre and tube off the old wheel, breaking it down and polishing the hub. The new rim and old hub are now laced. The nipples are snug with the rim, but I've not yet started truing the wheel, nor getting the offset right. It doesn't look very true at the moment and the outside spokes have a slight arc to them.

I think the only thing I did wrong (so far!), is judging which hub hole to start the 2nd round of inners (the offside). As they're not directly in line with the other side of the hub. It was 50:50 and i guessed wrong. By the time I'd finished the 1st row of outers (on the disc side) it was clear the offside inners looked too long, so i had to undo the outers and that round of inners, to move them round one hole. How I laughed!

Will start again tomorrow. It's definitely something that takes a bit of practice!
Click to expand...
I thought I was doing well, ready to mount the tire(new stainless rim w/Buchanan spokes), when I noticed half the spokes had a slight curve on the nipple end. I had managed to get the rim the wrong way around. Disassembled the wheel and re-spoked with the rim on the right way , and everything fits nice. Must have studied that drill pattern an hour before I started, and I still got it wrong.
 
Frankie17 said:
the dimple pattern on modern rims is slightly different to Original Dunlop / Jones rims
modern replacement rims have the dimple pattern staggered slightly offset to the centre line of the rim this is where the confusion on spoke pattern 2x2 1x1 comes from
OE rims have a more pronounced pattern with dimple holes further offset to the rim centre line a 2x2 will have groups of two holes pierced either side of the centre line look at a 3 x 1 Dunlop rim three holes on one side of the well in a straight line and one offset to the other side which are very pronounced in comparison to a replacement rim.
Click to expand...

OK. I have never seen a 2x2 dimple pattern, but the Commando Mk3 rear rim actually has a 3x1 dimple pattern (I had not realized this). The design is peculiar and I am curious why NV devised this pattern, since the similar conical hub from Triumph/BSA featured a traditional 1x1 dimple pattern. This is the ideal arrangement.

Quote: Every wheel has a set of spokes which is actually a group of four sets. All wheels contain four sets of spokes, two for each hub side, or flange. One set that pulls and one that pushes. This is what creates the cross pattern and gives the wheel its strength. End of quote.

By all landmarks, the equal number of push/pull spokes from each flange results in an alternating dimple pattern, left-right to the rim bead (1:1). Even the heavier and more powerful T160 used a 1:1 dimple pattern, albeit with a cotton reel type hub. NV cocked it up, because on the Mk3 one set of spokes regularly looses tension.

Sorry for stealing this thread which was about the front wheel.

-Knut
 
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mdt-son said:
OK. I have never seen a 2x2 dimple pattern,...
Click to expand...

Triumph used 2x2 on various front wheels.
www.ebay.co.uk

TRIUMPH T120 6T TR6 BONNEVILLE = WM2 x 18 = FRONT WHEEL = 8" BRAKE = DUNLOP. | eBay

PRE UNIT, EARLY UNIT DUNLOP RIM 8" BRAKE. ALTHOUGH I RECKON AN AVERAGE ORIGINAL IS BETTER THAN A CHEAP REPRO. WHEEL BEARINGS AND BRAKE SURFACE ARE FINE.
www.ebay.co.uk

mdt-son said:
...but the Commando Mk3 rear rim actually has a 3x1 dimple pattern (I had not realized this). The design is peculiar and I am curious why NV devised this pattern, since the similar conical hub from Triumph/BSA featured a traditional 1x1 dimple pattern. This is the ideal arrangement. Even the heavier and more powerful T160 uses a 1:1 dimple pattern, albeit with a cotton reel type hub.
Click to expand...

Not that peculiar as the T140 disc rear rim was also 3x1 dimple pattern.

Mystery Wheel

I thought this might be a MkIII rear wheel but someone pointed out it’s not. Now I don’t know what it could be. Four bolts on each side but it’s defin not symmetrical. Thought?
www.accessnorton.com www.accessnorton.com

Page 9 (assuming the other 2x2, 3x1 are correct!)
CW06-1951 19xWm2 40 Norton Front Disc 3x1 1x1
CW06-6119 19xWm2 40 Norton Rear Disc 3x1
CW37-0643 19xWm2 40 Sprung Hub 2x2
CW37-1230 19xWm2 40 Tri/BSA Full Width Cast Hub 2x2
CW37-1374 18xWm2 40 Tri/BSA Full Width Cast Hub 2x2
CW37-4243 19xWm3 40 Triumph T160 Rear Disc 3x1 1x1
CW37-7030 18xWm3 40 Triumph Rear Disc 3x1
CW41-6007 18xWm3 40 BSA Full Width Cast Iron Rear 2x2
CW42-5550 19xWm1 40 BSA 190mm F/W Front 3x1
CW42-5588 19xWm2 40 BSA 190mm F/W Front 3x1
CW68-5556 19xWm2 40 BSA 1/2 Width Front (8") 3x1
CW BSA 13 17xWm2 40 BSA C15 2x2
 
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