from the commando on, looks like triumph eventualy got their
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Re: from the commando on, looks like triumph eventualy got t
i'm talking after the 70s commando,
"triumph eventually got their act together whereas norton is what it is,
what's the story?"
after the 70s commando,
triumph is firmly back in the game (selling new bikes) whereas norton is struggling with the 961
i'm talking after the 70s commando,
"triumph eventually got their act together whereas norton is what it is,
what's the story?"
after the 70s commando,
triumph is firmly back in the game (selling new bikes) whereas norton is struggling with the 961
Re: from the commando on, looks like triumph eventualy got t
As neither company has any links with the past other than the names they bought, what is the point... ?
Triumph is doing well because it has sufficient capital to develop designs properly and invest in modern mass production facilities.
Norton hasn't and isn't.
As neither company has any links with the past other than the names they bought, what is the point... ?
Triumph is doing well because it has sufficient capital to develop designs properly and invest in modern mass production facilities.
Norton hasn't and isn't.
Chris
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Re: from the commando on, looks like triumph eventualy got t
Hi 84
Both companies went to the wall. Mr Bloor put much money & many years behind his company & it shows. He was looking for long term growth. The way to build a company & the best business plan with funds to support it.
The new Norton does not have the same investment & could not approach the market the same way. I wish it well as I think we all do. Unfortunately being passionate about building the bikes if you don't have sufficient capital behind you results in problems! All of which, I think we can see they have encountered. Hopefully the have got through all this & will forfill their order book & continue to grow.
Chris
Hi 84
Both companies went to the wall. Mr Bloor put much money & many years behind his company & it shows. He was looking for long term growth. The way to build a company & the best business plan with funds to support it.
The new Norton does not have the same investment & could not approach the market the same way. I wish it well as I think we all do. Unfortunately being passionate about building the bikes if you don't have sufficient capital behind you results in problems! All of which, I think we can see they have encountered. Hopefully the have got through all this & will forfill their order book & continue to grow.
Chris
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Re: from the commando on, looks like triumph eventualy got t
I never really believed in 'brand loyalty' until now. And I believe it is strange how we become programmed. Years ago I owned several 650cc Triumphs and for many years I raced a triton in which the motor was derived from the 650. Back then only a few Nortons were imported into Victoria, so we usually did not race them. When I built the Seeley 850, I never believed in the motor. However when I got around to trying it, I found it to be surprisingly good. It is certainly much better than a hot 650 Triumph. I know this has no relevance to what is built by those companies these days, however if I was going to buy a retro, I'd buy either a Paul Smart Replica Ducati or the new Norton. The truth is that the new Triumphs are probably better than those two bikes, however they seem too similar to Japanese bikes to me. I'd like a Mk3 Seeley frame fitted with a 1000cc Harley sportster engine with 6 speed CR box and two front heads - that would be good.
I never really believed in 'brand loyalty' until now. And I believe it is strange how we become programmed. Years ago I owned several 650cc Triumphs and for many years I raced a triton in which the motor was derived from the 650. Back then only a few Nortons were imported into Victoria, so we usually did not race them. When I built the Seeley 850, I never believed in the motor. However when I got around to trying it, I found it to be surprisingly good. It is certainly much better than a hot 650 Triumph. I know this has no relevance to what is built by those companies these days, however if I was going to buy a retro, I'd buy either a Paul Smart Replica Ducati or the new Norton. The truth is that the new Triumphs are probably better than those two bikes, however they seem too similar to Japanese bikes to me. I'd like a Mk3 Seeley frame fitted with a 1000cc Harley sportster engine with 6 speed CR box and two front heads - that would be good.
concours
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Re: from the commando on, looks like triumph eventualy got t
LOL, Yeah, my Triumph 1050 triple is SOOOO "similar to a Jap bike" that's why Yamaha saw fit to shamelessly copy the Triumph Speed Triple and bring to market at $8000USD, the FZ-09, of which they will sell a boatload. :idea:
Have you RIDDEN a modern Triumph? Other than the retro air cooled parallel twins? (which have proven to be solid, durable modern antiques) I find the big triple intoxicating... great low end power, 8) and a top end to widen your eyes. :shock: And the sound...
acotrel said:
LOL, Yeah, my Triumph 1050 triple is SOOOO "similar to a Jap bike" that's why Yamaha saw fit to shamelessly copy the Triumph Speed Triple and bring to market at $8000USD, the FZ-09, of which they will sell a boatload. :idea:
Have you RIDDEN a modern Triumph? Other than the retro air cooled parallel twins? (which have proven to be solid, durable modern antiques) I find the big triple intoxicating... great low end power, 8) and a top end to widen your eyes. :shock: And the sound...
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Re: from the commando on, looks like triumph eventualy got t
I would describe triumph from OIF (and part of NVT) to the collapse of meridan as watching a train leave the station and drive down a set of tracks leading to a straight run off the edge of a cliff. I can't say the late 70's were a high point, even though there were one or two bright moments. As for the 80's onward with the current triumph company, I can describe it by metaphor. It's like that friend you have who works really hard and takes good care of himself and got two degrees out of college and ends up working at a retail outlet. Imagine that friend finally ends at a reasonable job, some two decades later...but you don't want to say "you deserve much better", because you know that could lead to another two decades of nothing.
Current triumph makes some really great bikes, and has been for a long time...they just were not that popular, and the quad pot bikes they made in the 90's weren't anything special on paper. All of those bikes and every speed triple I've ridden on are wonderful bikes, it's just a shame they never sold all that well (I speak only of N/A). As for the current fleet, they are nice bikes and have a nice market they aimed for. Between getting things produced in thailand and modular bikes they really got the price right and the performance right. The only thing is that the main seller (the parallel twins) are really boring bikes stock to ride on in my opinion, and they suffer from exactly what UJM's of the 70's and 80's did (did everything right...but had not a whole lot of character while doing it).
As for Norton, ignoring the whole dreer thing and whole rotary thing...the company currently suffers from building bikes for a market that doesn't exist. They're priced astronomically high compared to anything from a cheaper make that provides comparable performance. They also do not even compete with premium makes in this regard, as (at least in canada) you can get the following bikes for cheaper: Ducati 1198, Buell 1190SX, KTM 1190 RC8, Aprilla RSV4, and that's all I can think of off the top of my head. There's also countless offerings that are less brutal than those and more comparable to the 961, but substantially cheaper. I've understood that the fit on the 961 is wonderful and there are so many nice bits....but I can't see that being a business strategy for success unless it actually matches some market.
I would describe triumph from OIF (and part of NVT) to the collapse of meridan as watching a train leave the station and drive down a set of tracks leading to a straight run off the edge of a cliff. I can't say the late 70's were a high point, even though there were one or two bright moments. As for the 80's onward with the current triumph company, I can describe it by metaphor. It's like that friend you have who works really hard and takes good care of himself and got two degrees out of college and ends up working at a retail outlet. Imagine that friend finally ends at a reasonable job, some two decades later...but you don't want to say "you deserve much better", because you know that could lead to another two decades of nothing.
Current triumph makes some really great bikes, and has been for a long time...they just were not that popular, and the quad pot bikes they made in the 90's weren't anything special on paper. All of those bikes and every speed triple I've ridden on are wonderful bikes, it's just a shame they never sold all that well (I speak only of N/A). As for the current fleet, they are nice bikes and have a nice market they aimed for. Between getting things produced in thailand and modular bikes they really got the price right and the performance right. The only thing is that the main seller (the parallel twins) are really boring bikes stock to ride on in my opinion, and they suffer from exactly what UJM's of the 70's and 80's did (did everything right...but had not a whole lot of character while doing it).
As for Norton, ignoring the whole dreer thing and whole rotary thing...the company currently suffers from building bikes for a market that doesn't exist. They're priced astronomically high compared to anything from a cheaper make that provides comparable performance. They also do not even compete with premium makes in this regard, as (at least in canada) you can get the following bikes for cheaper: Ducati 1198, Buell 1190SX, KTM 1190 RC8, Aprilla RSV4, and that's all I can think of off the top of my head. There's also countless offerings that are less brutal than those and more comparable to the 961, but substantially cheaper. I've understood that the fit on the 961 is wonderful and there are so many nice bits....but I can't see that being a business strategy for success unless it actually matches some market.
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Re: from the commando on, looks like triumph eventualy got t
1996, T309 Brno went like a pit bull , not the fastest(but faster than a 961) John Bloor spent money on hiring the Meriden designers to develop Triumph not money on a stately home.
Meaty, Beaty Big and Bouncy. Best motorcycle I've ever owned....".......maybe
Still got the throw overs .
1996, T309 Brno went like a pit bull , not the fastest(but faster than a 961) John Bloor spent money on hiring the Meriden designers to develop Triumph not money on a stately home.
Meaty, Beaty Big and Bouncy. Best motorcycle I've ever owned....".......maybe
Still got the throw overs .
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Re: from the commando on, looks like triumph eventualy got t
I don't think Buell is making bikes anymore...but then I might be wrong.
The Norton strategy may or may not work...if the customer base doesn't dry up...maybe it will work. Very hard sell with all the other options out there like you said...then the aging demographic.
midnightlamp said:
I don't think Buell is making bikes anymore...but then I might be wrong.
The Norton strategy may or may not work...if the customer base doesn't dry up...maybe it will work. Very hard sell with all the other options out there like you said...then the aging demographic.
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Re: from the commando on, looks like triumph eventualy got t
The good thing is that whatever else the modern Norton and Triumph might be, they are British and less likely to have inbuilt redundancy. They might actually be re-buildable. Is there a requirement for all British bikes to have isolastics in the UK Design Rules for road bikes ?
The good thing is that whatever else the modern Norton and Triumph might be, they are British and less likely to have inbuilt redundancy. They might actually be re-buildable. Is there a requirement for all British bikes to have isolastics in the UK Design Rules for road bikes ?
Re: from the commando on, looks like triumph eventualy got t
If the 961 is compared to most high end production bikes, both on paper and on a track it comes up a mile short.
If it compared to a Godet Egli, it is a bit of a bargain. So it all depends where you look. Godet has orders a year in advance, but probably could not step up to production levels like Norton has or he would flood his own market.
Same with Norton, if they step up production to numbers like Triumph does, it would not work. Garner is well aware of this and has acknowledged from day one that their production numbers will stay small.
Same as with the Godet Eglis, there are only a small percentage of motorcycle customers who will pay for that specific brand and style of motorcycles.
Triumph went a totally different direction and hit the Japanese almost square on, but offered the triple which is really something special.
When they brought out the new version 955 Daytona in late 01, it came with 149 bhp, more than a Ducati 998. Aprilia RSV4 factory, Honda 954 etc, Honda Rc51 etc. They also offered a Triumph pipe and map to boost hp to 161 at crank. This was a very smart move by Triumph as keeping the rated HP above most in the class, but just under the 150 category change meant it was cheaper to insure in the UK than the GSXR or R1, which were rated just over 150 HP. At the same time Triumph sold a great many of the pipe and map kits to buyers wanting the extra 12 HP available, thereby adding around $1,000 to each new bike sale. Clever, no wonder Triumph makes money.
I have a test of the seven top litre bikes of the day. In acceleration, the Triumph beat everything 0-60 and beat all but the Suzuki GSXR 1000 zero to 120 MPH. Both the Triumph and GSXR were just a shade over 9 seconds to 120 MPH, with the GSXR about 5 100ths quicker, maybe half a wheel length.
After the test there was a 150 mile trip home, all three testers reached for the Triumph keys, it is that nice on the road. Not bad for a relatively small upstart British company. After the 955 Daytona they brought out the 675 which is still a top bike in that class.
Glen
If the 961 is compared to most high end production bikes, both on paper and on a track it comes up a mile short.
If it compared to a Godet Egli, it is a bit of a bargain. So it all depends where you look. Godet has orders a year in advance, but probably could not step up to production levels like Norton has or he would flood his own market.
Same with Norton, if they step up production to numbers like Triumph does, it would not work. Garner is well aware of this and has acknowledged from day one that their production numbers will stay small.
Same as with the Godet Eglis, there are only a small percentage of motorcycle customers who will pay for that specific brand and style of motorcycles.
Triumph went a totally different direction and hit the Japanese almost square on, but offered the triple which is really something special.
When they brought out the new version 955 Daytona in late 01, it came with 149 bhp, more than a Ducati 998. Aprilia RSV4 factory, Honda 954 etc, Honda Rc51 etc. They also offered a Triumph pipe and map to boost hp to 161 at crank. This was a very smart move by Triumph as keeping the rated HP above most in the class, but just under the 150 category change meant it was cheaper to insure in the UK than the GSXR or R1, which were rated just over 150 HP. At the same time Triumph sold a great many of the pipe and map kits to buyers wanting the extra 12 HP available, thereby adding around $1,000 to each new bike sale. Clever, no wonder Triumph makes money.
I have a test of the seven top litre bikes of the day. In acceleration, the Triumph beat everything 0-60 and beat all but the Suzuki GSXR 1000 zero to 120 MPH. Both the Triumph and GSXR were just a shade over 9 seconds to 120 MPH, with the GSXR about 5 100ths quicker, maybe half a wheel length.
After the test there was a 150 mile trip home, all three testers reached for the Triumph keys, it is that nice on the road. Not bad for a relatively small upstart British company. After the 955 Daytona they brought out the 675 which is still a top bike in that class.
Glen
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Re: from the commando on, looks like triumph eventualy got t
What you're saying is 100% true and I do mirror that sentiment. Sadly, not a lot of people bought the triples when they came out, hence the analogy from before :mrgreen:
As for the current situation with Norton, while I feel that is one way to approach it, I don't think it's a great way to make a company flourish and grow. Both triumph and enfield have recently carved nice niche markets for themselves are are racking up enough sales to actually be adventurous and fund "fun" performance models. I can't imagine norton making a large profit on the 961's the way they are layed out...but If I'm honest there are a lot of things on them that are there only for good "mouthfeel" that the owners likely wouldn't ever see the real benefits of (ohlins forks and rear shocks would spring to mind). I could imagine them dropping the price more than a few dollars by going with cheaper mass produced wheels and maybe something like a paioli shocks like the new RE conti GT.
Also at the buell thing, they've come back with rotax powered beasts. The 1190 is literally nuts.
http://www.erikbuellracing.com/motorcycles/ebr1190rx/
http://www.erikbuellracing.com/motorcycles/1190sx-2/
What you're saying is 100% true and I do mirror that sentiment. Sadly, not a lot of people bought the triples when they came out, hence the analogy from before :mrgreen:
As for the current situation with Norton, while I feel that is one way to approach it, I don't think it's a great way to make a company flourish and grow. Both triumph and enfield have recently carved nice niche markets for themselves are are racking up enough sales to actually be adventurous and fund "fun" performance models. I can't imagine norton making a large profit on the 961's the way they are layed out...but If I'm honest there are a lot of things on them that are there only for good "mouthfeel" that the owners likely wouldn't ever see the real benefits of (ohlins forks and rear shocks would spring to mind). I could imagine them dropping the price more than a few dollars by going with cheaper mass produced wheels and maybe something like a paioli shocks like the new RE conti GT.
Also at the buell thing, they've come back with rotax powered beasts. The 1190 is literally nuts.
http://www.erikbuellracing.com/motorcycles/ebr1190rx/
http://www.erikbuellracing.com/motorcycles/1190sx-2/
Re: from the commando on, looks like triumph eventualy got t
I think the Triumph Daytona 955s sold really well in the UK and Europe, not so much in North America. The insurance thing really helped them in the UK where insurance cost for < 25 year old riders is quite high.
Glen
I think the Triumph Daytona 955s sold really well in the UK and Europe, not so much in North America. The insurance thing really helped them in the UK where insurance cost for < 25 year old riders is quite high.
Glen
Re: from the commando on, looks like triumph eventualy got t
I don't own one, however like a lot of us aging riders, I have lusted for one. Without the experience of riding the 961 I can determine that it will not perform at the level of my $5,000 161 HP lightly used Triumph Daytona 955i nor will it keep pace with a $14,000 193hp BMW 1000rr. One of the knocks against the 961 is that it is so expensive for a mere 80 HP motorcycle. Though this is true, 80 HP on public roads is actually plenty with a relatively light bike. Also, the appeal of the 961 is not engine output, rather it is the style of the bike, which is unique. So a purchase of this type (the 961)is done for other reasons than performance, nothing wrong with that.
Btw, the standard Godet Egli Vincent puts out 55 bhp and costs about $100,000. Now that is expensive horsepower!
Funny thing is I hear lots of negativity about the cost/performance ratio of the 961,which is cheap compared to an Egli, and only ooohing and awwing for the Egli. Doesn't make sense, but then motorcycles are not a sensible machine are they?
Glen
I don't own one, however like a lot of us aging riders, I have lusted for one. Without the experience of riding the 961 I can determine that it will not perform at the level of my $5,000 161 HP lightly used Triumph Daytona 955i nor will it keep pace with a $14,000 193hp BMW 1000rr. One of the knocks against the 961 is that it is so expensive for a mere 80 HP motorcycle. Though this is true, 80 HP on public roads is actually plenty with a relatively light bike. Also, the appeal of the 961 is not engine output, rather it is the style of the bike, which is unique. So a purchase of this type (the 961)is done for other reasons than performance, nothing wrong with that.
Btw, the standard Godet Egli Vincent puts out 55 bhp and costs about $100,000. Now that is expensive horsepower!
Funny thing is I hear lots of negativity about the cost/performance ratio of the 961,which is cheap compared to an Egli, and only ooohing and awwing for the Egli. Doesn't make sense, but then motorcycles are not a sensible machine are they?
Glen
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Re: from the commando on, looks like triumph eventualy got t
You're right, Worntorn, it is fairly expensive. That's part of being in the "elite" group of Retroheads. That being said, its not all about the horsepower. The overall build quality, sans the engine, is exceptional. I've compared the Beemer Nine T to the Norton side by side, and with the exception of the turn signals, the Nortons exterior build quality is far superior. Billet, carbon fiber and metal dial casings, braided lines and hydraulics fittings are of top quality. And as you mentioned, style. The Brembos and Ohlins tossed in there would knock the price up consdierably to and are far worth it. So really, it depends on what you want out of a bike. The looks, sound, handling and being the coolest kid on the block because no one else has one makes it all worth it. Now...its a brand new company to the US, and yes, they really do have to get their customer service off the ground. But hey, once you've ridden it, you're hooked.
You're right, Worntorn, it is fairly expensive. That's part of being in the "elite" group of Retroheads. That being said, its not all about the horsepower. The overall build quality, sans the engine, is exceptional. I've compared the Beemer Nine T to the Norton side by side, and with the exception of the turn signals, the Nortons exterior build quality is far superior. Billet, carbon fiber and metal dial casings, braided lines and hydraulics fittings are of top quality. And as you mentioned, style. The Brembos and Ohlins tossed in there would knock the price up consdierably to and are far worth it. So really, it depends on what you want out of a bike. The looks, sound, handling and being the coolest kid on the block because no one else has one makes it all worth it. Now...its a brand new company to the US, and yes, they really do have to get their customer service off the ground. But hey, once you've ridden it, you're hooked.
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