Follower scar oil tests (2018)

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Such a difference between UK green- laning and touring thru North American Mountain ranges on steep, high-speed roads.
I loved touring in the UK but it really is a different usage of the bike than in Western North America.
Then there's the mileage covered.
Some UK users might only see a few hundred miles on the clock each year.
That's a one day ride over here.
So I'm in the camp that wants to know which brand of oil is going to hang in there when things get very warm and the steep climb goes on forever.

Glen
 
I think the removal of the oil trough to install high lift cams is a significant issue,I would bet the low stressed cam and followers in my 99 are still ok after 58 years use.Even the best oil is not much use if its not where its needed at start up..I did have a quick look for Bel Ray oil and it appears to be about 5 times the price than the oil I use. Which is thrown after 2K miles.My motors mostly don't get very hot ,in fact its a problem keeping the mayonase at bay. I could probably benefit from an oil tank heater.
 
comnoz said:
I guess you must be luckier than I am. I have experienced lubrication failure more than once. And judging by the number of wiped out Norton cams I have received for cores -I am not alone. Jim
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I agree with Jim.. And also those who say that they've had no cam/lubrication problems in places like the UK and New Zealand.
I'm in the fortunate position of having had lived with and ridden my Commando in different continents and climates over a number of years

It's my experience that the external environment, specifically ambient temperature and slow running in traffic that plays a big part in relation to cam wear problems.

I purchased my 850 Commando 41 years, ago in Australia,but it wasn't my first Commando - I'd had a Combat for 3 years before that in NZ.
No oil related problems in NZ...but in Australia the established wisdom/advice was: "Jeez mate. Ya don't wanna run a bloody Brit twin or triple over here mate. They can't bloody handle the bloody heat"
I didn't have any issues in Australia, but I was running a Penrite 25w/60 in my Norton even back then. I was so happy with the Penrite that I later became became the NZ distributor for Penrite.
In NZ I ran Penrite 25w/60 or 25w/70 also, but I also ran on Castrol GTX 20w/50 for years. My nitrided 4S cam w 6" radiused followers from Mick Hemmings lasted approx 40, 000 miles and including race use before developing slight wear on one lobe.
I replaced the 4S just before airfreighting my Commando to the US for the first part of my multi stage round the world ride back in June..14,000 miles and numerous days of +100F riding and construction zones and rush hour traffic snarl ups (you non- Californian 'mercuns HAVE to get Lane-splitting made legal like CA, Europe , UK NZ.) my new cam was thoroughly fecked. I believe it was the 5000 miles I spent running the engine in on VR1 and GTX before switching to Royal Purple or Castrol V twin synthetic. By then the damage was already done

Thanks to the efforts of people like Jim Comstock and others on this community, we have a much better understanding of the types of conditions that will cause SCF - Sudden Camshaft Failure .
If you live in the UK or NZ, the climate possibly isn't going to take your engine temperature into the danger zone and the oil choice becomes less critical.

For me and my Zen and The Art of Norton Maintenance Tour where I'll be running into all sorts of high and low temperatures and altitudes, I'll be using the oil that suits Jim's own high attitude high ambient temperature conditions.

Bel Ray V Twin 10w/50 synthetic is looking pretty good right now..
Many thanks Jim..
 
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Klotz_25W60_V-Twin_with_Active8_7.5%
Follower scar oil tests (2018)

371 lbs Load
2.46 heat from high pressure shear
Unmeasurable heat from viscous friction

This was with the maximum recommended concentration of 7.5%

Load capacity dropped from 500+ to 371 lbs. with Activ8

I will try it again with a lower concentration.
 
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That’s interesting Jim, and puts us back into the topic of how much load do we need? And what’s the optimum balance between load, friction and heat?

Maybe 371lbs load is a fine, and the reduction from 500+ is worthwhile to gain such low heat and friction?
 
Just brought myself up to date with this thread and in my best adenoidal voice, very interesting.
Follower scar oil tests (2018)


Around post 680, it looks like ZDDP is losing support (is that a pun?) as I understand it, ZDDP is a sacrificial additive and as such, would its usefulness be more apparent after a thousand miles of use in an engine, in fact If you have some oil in your bike that has been in there for a decent mileage, I would be very interested to see the results of that being tested against some straight from the tin.
 
If I were to flash my cash for an expensive oil I would be looking for 1. The ability to cling on to surfaces for long periods of dissuse to prevent start up wear which is where much damage is done.2. The ability to avoid corrosion in bearings when stored for long periods .3. The oils ability (if a multigrade) of the long chain molecules to withstand the chopping and grinding that occurs in my bevel drive valve gear , ball and roller bearing motors with unit gearboxes. The plain bearing big ends of the nortons will survive on just about anything.
 
norton bob said:
If I were to flash my cash for an expensive oil I would be looking for 1. The ability to cling on to surfaces for long periods of dissuse to prevent start up wear which is where much damage is done.2. The ability to avoid corrosion in bearings when stored for long periods .3. The oils ability (if a multigrade) of the long chain molecules to withstand the chopping and grinding that occurs in my bevel drive valve gear , ball and roller bearing motors with unit gearboxes. The plain bearing big ends of the nortons will survive on just about anything.
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Which is why I am using a tester setup with a line contact arbor and follower. It creates very high shear forces -like gears.

Also why I do not use any type of anti-wet-sump valve. The moment the crank turns after it has set long enough for the oil to be gone from the cam -it gets a bath.
 
storm42 said:
Just brought myself up to date with this thread and in my best adenoidal voice, very interesting.
Follower scar oil tests (2018)


Around post 680, it looks like ZDDP is losing support (is that a pun?) as I understand it, ZDDP is a sacrificial additive and as such, would its usefulness be more apparent after a thousand miles of use in an engine, in fact If you have some oil in your bike that has been in there for a decent mileage, I would be very interested to see the results of that being tested against some straight from the tin.
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Early in my testing I tested the Royal Purple that had been run for 3700 miles in my bike. It tested the same as new.

Simply putting a number on ZDDP is not a very good indication of how the oil is going to work. ZDDP additives are a complex group of several additives which may or may not be of much benefit depending on the other additives in the oil.

ZDDP is sacrificial but only a small amount is used to produce a coating on the rubbing contacts in the motor. We have a pretty large oil capacity in comparison to the engine size, so the ZDDP is not going to be used up very fast in a Norton.

I tested an oil with no ZDDP. AeroShell 20W50.

It failed the moment the load arm was set down with the minimum weight.

I also re-tried the AeroShell after running another oil on the same arbor and follower for part of a cycle. I simply rinsed the bowl and parts with solvent and replaced the VR1 with AeroShell. It became obvious that there was a coating left on the arbor and follower because the Aeroshell was then able to carry some load.
 
Fast Eddie said:
That’s interesting Jim, and puts us back into the topic of how much load do we need? And what’s the optimum balance between load, friction and heat?

Maybe 371lbs load is a fine, and the reduction from 500+ is worthwhile to gain such low heat and friction?
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This is true but I don't know what is actually needed.
I do know that load capacity definitely drops fast as the temperature goes up.

That is why I look for a lot of load capacity to start with. The engine setup and type of riding I do can definitely create some temperature extremes.

It was interesting to see that the FR3 did not give me any loss of load capacity, but the Activ8 and the Everglide EGS both made for a loss.
The load loss from the Everglide was more than with the Activ8.

Since there was since a huge reduction in friction with the Activ8, I think maybe a lower concentration may give a better balance between loss of friction and loss of load capacity.

I will be running FR3 in my oil on my trip next week.
It will be interesting to re-test the oil after the trip and see if it testes the same as it did before the trip.
 
Has it ever been considered to have the crankcases modified to have a lip formed (welded ) at the rear or the camshaft to form a shallow trough, this would hold a small amount of oil for the cam lobes to dip into. it would only work if the bike was parked on centre stand of course.
 
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olympus said:
Has it ever been considered to have the crankcases modified to have a lip formed (welded ) at the rear or the camshaft to form a shallow trough, this would hold a small amount of oil for the cam lobes to dip into. it would only work if the bike was parked on centre stand of course.
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It has been done by me in 1981 and a few others. I didn't see any difference and still had a cam failure even with the trough. Never bothered with it again after that.
 
norton bob said:
I think the removal of the oil trough to install high lift cams is a significant issue,I would bet the low stressed cam and followers in my 99 are still ok after 58 years use.Even the best oil is not much use if its not where its needed at start up..I did have a quick look for Bel Ray oil and it appears to be about 5 times the price than the oil I use. Which is thrown after 2K miles.My motors mostly don't get very hot ,in fact its a problem keeping the mayonase at bay. I could probably benefit from an oil tank heater.
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4 Litres of Bel Ray is between 50€ and 60€ on amazon.fr .... so you are suggesting you buy 4 litres of oil for say £10! Really?

How long does it take you to do 2K miles? or is this an annual change?

I did notice some silly prices quoted for single litres bottles, but why would you buy a single litre?
 
rvich said:
Well, I can say that after looking over Snotzo's numbers that I won't be running my bike up to 8000 RPM. Unless I am missing something almost none of the oils tested have provided protection in film strength needed for those calculations.

It occurs to me of course that the difference between these tests and actual use is that 100% of the oil in our bikes does not stay at the follower interface for an hour. Which should help us breath a little easier about those rising oil temps. I've seen it commented on in various threads that a Commando oil tank shouldn't be filled to capacity for best results. I don't remember any longer why that was proposed, but it seems to me that keeping the tank topped up is critical in helping control oil temp and a lot easier to do than installing an oil cooler.
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No don't.... The information from Snotzo near replicates my 750 short stroke at first build, beehive single springs vs conical. It did run 26 races running up to 8000rpm at times. Result, one trashed PW3 as referenced elswhere. Could I have used better oil? Yes, and I think I am now...... but due to change again....
 
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I ran Klotz again but with 5% Activ8 as was recommended for the concentration in 2 stroke oil
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Klotz_25W60_V-Twin_Synthetic_ w5% Activ8
Follower scar oil tests (2018)

500+ lbs Load-no follower damage
2.46 heat from high pressure shear
.01 heat from friction -very low

No loss of load capacity with Activ8 at 5%
 
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That’s another good result Jim, which seems to conclude that Activ8 is a good additive, good news for us in Europe as some of the other additives you’ve tested aren’t available.

Will you be re-running the Bel Ray V Twin oil with a 5% solution ?
 
Fast Eddie said:
That’s another good result Jim, which seems to conclude that Activ8 is a good additive, good news for us in Europe as some of the other additives you’ve tested aren’t available.

Will you be re-running the Bel Ray V Twin oil with a 5% solution ?
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I can, after my next order of arbor races shows up.
 
Jim I've posted your information of the testing on the 356 Registry website. The 356 Porsche engines were designed in the same era as the Norton engine i.e. air cooled and flat follower cams. Similar oil requirements, although not as severe usage as the Norton engines.
Anyway and not to make more work for you, one of the preferred oils for them is this one https://www.penngrade.com/penngrade-1/
Since it's not full synthetic it may not be better than Bel Ray but may be a little cheaper.
Have you tested it?

Thanks, Ray
 
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