Follower scar oil tests (2018)

Hi Jim
I see that a separated heading has been added and the oil analysis graphs are there, but did we get any closer to getting all the data applied into an excel spreadsheet???

olympus said:

Hi Jim
I see that a separated heading has been added and the oil analysis graphs are there, but did we get any closer to getting all the data applied into an excel spreadsheet???

Click to expand...

Yes, work is being done on a spreadsheet.

I am also adding another bit of calculated information that will help determine if the oil is good in air cooled use.
That will be friction at high pressure shear and will be determined by the temperature rise of the follower when the load is high.
It will replace the follower temperature number.
As I add that number to the oils already posted I will also add my recommendations for use.
Now all I need is a clone....

Top man many thanks Jim

The BelRay exp synthetic ester blend 20/50 is available in the UK at approx. 30 GBP per four litre jug.
It was right at or near the top in Jim's testing until the full synthetic Bel Ray VTwin 10/50 knocked it off the podium.
For my needs, it (exp)has about twice the load strength of VR1 and less friction but costs the same.
Been getting by without any early wear issues using VR1, so the BelRay exp should be more than adequate.


Glen

comnoz said:

I have more oils to test.

I don't know the prices of the UK oils but here the winner for the lowest priced oil suitable for a Norton is the Castrol GTX 20-50.

I probably wouldn't head out across the great basin in 100 degree temps at 100 mph using it, but I wouldn't be afraid of it for normal use.

Many of the oils I don't recommend for a Norton fail because they can't stand the heat of the air cooled motor, but at 220 degrees in my tester there are a lot of them that will bury the load needle.

Click to expand...

Jim, if I recall correctly, the GTX had great load, but high friction.
How about GTX with Activ8?
Yes the load may reduce, but so might the friction.
Might just be a good economy option for Brit / EU Nortoneers...?

Fast Eddie said:

Jim, if I recall correctly, the GTX had great load, but high friction.
How about GTX with Activ8?
Yes the load may reduce, but so might the friction.
Might just be a good economy option for Brit / EU Nortoneers...?

Click to expand...

It might work.
One thing for sure is, I will not be adding any additives without doing some testing first to see what happens.
Now I know why the oil engineer I talked to said "the results may not be what you expect"

comnoz said:

It might work.
One thing for sure is, I will not be adding any additives without doing some testing first to see what happens.
Now I know why the oil engineer I talked to said "the results may not be what you expect"

Click to expand...

Couldn’t agree more with that Jim!

Castrol GTX 20/50 is available in the UK but costs a bit more (Amazon UK) than Bel Ray EXP 20/50.
The Bel Ray exp had 400 lbs film strength vs 257 for GTX . Bel Ray also had much lower friction at 1.99 vs 7.87 for the GTX.

Glen

worntorn said:

Castrol GTX 20/50 is available in the UK but costs a bit more (Amazon UK) than Bel Ray EXP 20/50.
The Bel Ray exp had 400 lbs film strength vs 257 for GTX . Bel Ray also had much lower friction at 1.99 vs 7.87 for the GTX.

Glen

Click to expand...

In that case I would definitely choose the EXP.

Surprised at the price difference. The Castrol at Rileys auto parts near me was $4.97 a qt. vs $8.39 plus shipping for the Bel Ray.

So the next question is how does it do in the oil change frequency contest? If you can safely double the change frequency then you
can withstand increase in cost per quart/litre.

Onder said:

So the next question is how does it do in the oil change frequency contest? If you can safely double the change frequency then you
can withstand increase in cost per quart/litre.

Click to expand...

I an sure the synthetic blend will outlast the conventional and the lower heat from friction will also add to the oil life, but I can't say how much from experience.

But if I were betting I would say double the mileage life would be reasonable.

But not double the time for bikes that see short trips. For them contamination would be the limit.

Having used a cheap oil for over 20K miles and then striping the engine for a blown head gasket that lead to finding an oval original bore and a cam lobe that was starting to go due to debris from above - most probably form the head change. I am tempted to keep using it, when I started using it the doomsters were the same, 'you run a 5W-40 Oil, it way too thin and the engine will fail' guess what, it didn't.

The original pistons as one person will confirm were like new after 37K miles - I sold them on Ebay for £5.00. the skirts were just as the day they were fitted, the big end shells, again not even worn through or even close to being worn through, this on 5W-40.

I can't afford another Norton, but I can easily afford to repair it, so I can test things and rebuild if need be quite easily.

I'm all for a good oil, but value has to come to mind. As for the Millers oil tested, I had high hopes for that one, but I now wonder why the Millers team said to use the cheaper next version down, it does not have its additive pacakage, maybe they knew something. It is a semi synthetic, but runs a lot hotter than my cheapo Tesco's full synthetic 5W-40 that I used for years.

Jim, I know this is not a fair request, but on the off chance that there is at least one other owner who is as technically illiterate as I am, could you summarize your findings for each oil for a five year old? (Line stolen from a movie). For example you say Mobil 1 15-50 has almost no friction but loses its properties quickly when temperatures go up. Does that mean it should not be used on a (I'm guessing) typical bike that does less than 1,000 miles a year? I know your test data is probably the most accurate independent oil testing on the internet, but I'm beyond being embarrassed about saying that I don't really understand much of it. Thanks

Im running Fuchs Super4_20-50 not the comp4. At 1200 miles it is getting darker. Not black but noticeably darker.
I do mostly 75 mile runs non stop. A mix of green lane and A-B roads. Not a lot of dual carriage but when I do it
is 3800 rpm 70mph.
Im thinking that the semi syn BelRay10-50 V Twin might do. The 10w may well ease starting too.
What would be the suggested change interval? Im in the cool southwest.

NortonMKIIA850 said:

While I appreciate the sentiment, it's hard to hear – I for one am already doing what I can. For example, I subscribed to a shipment of oil samples to Jim from the UK. So they're wise words, but I'm not riding for now because the bike's waiting on a top-end repair that I currently can't afford … I just do my best.

The worst thing, which I'm only flagging here in case anyone's tempted to say it, is when someone says 'if you can't afford to look after your Norton properly, you shouldn't have it'. I've seen that said more than once online. I bought my Commando when I could afford it, more than 20 years ago – if anyone thinks I shouldn't have it now, they can come and take it from my cold, dead hands …!

Click to expand...

That isn't what I said at all!

I built my bike whilst I was working, I am now retired, I couldn't do it again. But I had to pay for a new cam and followers and I rebuilt it, that was hard to do.

I will spend an extra 10 to 15 Euros per 4 litres if I don't have to do that again!

Bodger said:

Jim, I know this is not a fair request, but on the off chance that there is at least one other owner who is as technically illiterate as I am, could you summarize your findings for each oil for a five year old? (Line stolen from a movie). For example you say Mobil 1 15-50 has almost no friction but loses its properties quickly when temperatures go up. Does that mean it should not be used on a (I'm guessing) typical bike that does less than 1,000 miles a year? I know your test data is probably the most accurate independent oil testing on the internet, but I'm beyond being embarrassed about saying that I don't really understand much of it. Thanks

Click to expand...

That will be coming up in the comments section for each oil.

Onder said:

Im running Fuchs Super4_20-50 not the comp4. At 1200 miles it is getting darker. Not black but noticeably darker.
I do mostly 75 mile runs non stop. A mix of green lane and A-B roads. Not a lot of dual carriage but when I do it
is 3800 rpm 70mph.
Im thinking that the semi syn BelRay10-50 V Twin might do. The 10w may well ease starting too.
What would be the suggested change interval? Im in the cool southwest.

Click to expand...

Bel Ray says 3000 mile intervals for a bike with a 3 quart oil capacity.
I would add that it should be changed at least once a year regardless of the mileage, preferably just before it is put away for the season.

SteveA said:

That isn't what I said at all!

Click to expand...

Sorry, SteveA, maybe you've got the wrong end of the stick? I meant no offence to you at all. I simply flagged up something that hasn't been said yet, by you or anyone else on this thread, as a line in the sand. Because I've seen it said before online. That's all. That's why I emphasised the word 'flagging'. I too will spend the extra when I have to, once I have it. I hope you get that now, and no hard feelings?

MexicoMike said:

It's been BIG DEAL for many years in just about every old/vintage OHV engined-car and moto forum. Of course, for Motos that pretty much just means, with a few exceptions, old brittbikes and Harleys! In the rest of the vehicle world, it is like worrying about who makes the best buggy whips!

Click to expand...

....and Airhead BMW's. Plenty of gnashing of teeth over oil selection on those forums.

NKN's 6 oil samples


___________________________________________________________
D_BMW_Motorrad_ADVANTEC_Pro_15W50_API_SM_JASO_MA2

199 lbs load
2.48 heat from high pressure shear
4.62 heat from viscous friction

The load capacity is high enough for a mildly tuned motor but the heat from friction is higher than I would like.

_________________________________________________________
GB_Castrol_Classic_XL-20W50_conventional

331 lbs load
2.97 heat from high pressure shear
.011 heat from friction

High load capacity and extremely low heat from viscous friction would make this a good choice for hard use in a Norton.
The only thing that would stop me from giving it an excellent rating would be the medium/high heat generated at high loads.

If you prefer a conventional oil for break-in then this would be a good choice

_________________________________________________________
F_Carrefour_15W40_API_SL-CF_ACEA_A3-B4

196 lbs load
3.97 heat from high pressure shear
2.33 heat from friction

I would call this a good oil for a stock or mildly tuned Norton.

__________________________________________________________
CH Miocar_MX+_15W40_API_SL-CF_ACEA_A3-B3

183 lbs load
5.24 heat from high pressure shear
5.54 heat from viscous friction

The load capacity would be OK for a stock or mildly tuned engine but the high heat would make it best for use in cool climates or water cooled engines.

_________________________________________________________
F_Carrefour_5W50_Syn

224 lbs load
2.96 heat from high pressure shear
.01 heat from friction

Good load capacity and extremely low heat generated would make this a very good oil for a Norton.

____________________________________________________________________
CH_Idoil_20W50_Anti_consummation

139 lbs load
No data for heat from high pressure shear
3.931 heat from viscous friction

Not recommended for a Norton.