Flame Ring now a days?

I've had both he good kind and the very bad kind of FlameRing head gaskets, plus the copper ones. I've heard the good kind of Flamerings have dissappeared. Is this so? I've got to order one for Trixie Combat to up CR and stiffle oil smoke leaking past push rod tunnels, till warms up on hyw to swell enough to seal insides from smoke but then blows outside on side cover.

Here's Trixie's '06 fake flamering after 15 miles that almost cut fuel line for El Flamo ending.

hobot said:

I've had both he good kind and the very bad kind of FlameRing head gaskets, plus the copper ones. I've heard the good kind of Flamerings have dissappeared. Is this so? I've got to order one for Trixie Combat to up CR and stiffle oil smoke leaking past push rod tunnels, till warms up on hyw to swell enough to seal insides from smoke but then blows outside on side cover.

Here's Trixie's '06 fake flamering after 15 miles that almost cut fuel line for El Flamo ending.

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With your unique high performance applications---I would seriously consider Maney or JS copper type.

Here's a stupid question...maybe. How do you tell a good flame ring gasket from a bad one?

No it isn't supposed to be a joke or it would start with "knock knock". Is there a way to tell before you put it into the joint?

Russ

Trixie has never been pushed hard by me and never will be as only a mere factory set up Combat. She blew apart twice prior to this head gasket shot by deer head on and then slotted pistons rubbing Al gasket let go Pictured 'flamering' was only thin copper foil over wimpy cardbaord like core and I'd just installed it, thinking a well known vendor would not send crap, but still too novice in '06 to know for sure. Was still in break in warm up mild commute to work before a torque re-check, about 15 miles/20 min going about 55 mph, HORRIFIC BLASTS and single cylinder firing - I knew instantly what happened but delayed in shutting fully down as I've ridden miles as a single for one reason or another >>> til I began reviewing ancient posts about various fuel line routes till BINGO, it hit me! to hit kill and parked to see flame jets were within a few seconds of finishing cutting through factory fuel line, ugh. Pure thoughtful logic against my prior experiences and desire to make my appointment in time, ugh.

So who do we call as a real Flamering gives a bit more bark-spunk and seals better than copper d/t gray glue like coating that sets with heat. Ugh Trixie started 1st kick today and didn't hardly smoke, yet yesterday she smoked so bad I decided not to ride her, ugh. So decided better get mower going instead but its'not so far. [insert ya own mood word here]

rvich said:

Here's a stupid question...maybe. How do you tell a good flame ring gasket from a bad one?

No it isn't supposed to be a joke or it would start with "knock knock". Is there a way to tell before you put it into the joint?

Russ

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it should come in a sealed Andover Norton bag. There is lettering on one side. I think it says "this side up" or something like that. I have one on hand. I can take a photo if that would help.

debby said:

rvich said:

Here's a stupid question...maybe. How do you tell a good flame ring gasket from a bad one?

No it isn't supposed to be a joke or it would start with "knock knock". Is there a way to tell before you put it into the joint?

Russ

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it should come in a sealed Andover Norton bag. There is lettering on one side. I think it says "this side up" or something like that. I have one on hand. I can take a photo if that would help.

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Yes---on the OEM Andover gasket if wanting to go back to the composition type---never had a problem with one----"personally" I use Gaskasinch on both sides of the gasket--let it get tacky--then install. Some people use it as it comes from the bag---some use other types of sealers--what ever one prefers. Some suppliers send what appears to be the composition gasket--but they do not come in the Norton Andover plastic bag---so hard telling the quality. Some parts it doesn't pay to get the chee-pee variety.

debby said:

rvich said:

Here's a stupid question...maybe. How do you tell a good flame ring gasket from a bad one?

No it isn't supposed to be a joke or it would start with "knock knock". Is there a way to tell before you put it into the joint?

Russ

Click to expand...

it should come in a sealed Andover Norton bag. There is lettering on one side. I think it says "this side up" or something like that. I have one on hand. I can take a photo if that would help.

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Yes---on the OEM Andover gasket if wanting to go back to the composition type---never had a problem with one----"personally" I use Gaskasinch on both sides of the gasket--let it get tacky--then install. Some people use it as it comes from the bag---some use other types of sealers--what ever one prefers. Some suppliers send what appears to be the composition gasket--but they do not come in the Norton Andover plastic bag---so hard telling the quality. Some parts it doesn't pay to get the chee-pee variety.

hobot
look for the name victor/reinz on the gasket materiel.

look for the name victor/reinz on the gasket materiel.

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Say what Bill? I've never seen a label on the Norton gasket materials, though i've used the labeled paper they come in as gaskets in Trixie. Now I'm confused, as prior posts here say get the Anover Norton labeled composite flame ring. Are you teasing a novice for fun like me?

Keepping one of these commando's as plain Jane factory built is turning out to be rather more difficult than fancy customized. I've tried the metalic paints and can tell ya the silver works as good as the copper and gold colors and about as well asWellSeal of even Hylomar/ ie: expect some annoying weeps after few 1000 miles to turn to smoking messy leaks some 1000 miles later. i think what might of done in Trixies gasket seal was the surprise trip to Texas with only hrs of warning i put the rear back together from broken axle to wee hours then packed and hit hwy w/o time to re-torque head another time enough. Come to think of it just now, I will try to seal Trixie again,this time sans gasket - only Hylomar, if Combats can take it w/o fouling or detonating on 87 octane.

Some of the AN gaskets I have seen are victor/reinz. are you doing the proper retorques? I do the ist one after 1 heat cycle 2nd after 100 miles 3rd after 500 miles.I also do not use ANY sealer but if you must than maybe a little gaskacinch in the push rod area ONLY and defiantly NOT hylomar also are you SURE EVERYTHING IS FLAT!!! As to 87 octane in a combat you WILL have trouble with detonation, piston's and head gaskets being some of it.

hobot said:

Say what Bill? I've never seen a label on the Norton gasket materials, though i've used the labeled paper they come in as gaskets in Trixie. Now I'm confused, as prior posts here say get the Anover Norton labeled composite flame ring. Are you teasing a novice for fun like me?

Keepping one of these commando's as plain Jane factory built is turning out to be rather more difficult than fancy customized. I've tried the metalic paints and can tell ya the silver works as good as the copper and gold colors and about as well asWellSeal of even Hylomar/ ie: expect some annoying weeps after few 1000 miles to turn to smoking messy leaks some 1000 miles later. i think what might of done in Trixies gasket seal was the surprise trip to Texas with only hrs of warning i put the rear back together from broken axle to wee hours then packed and hit hwy w/o time to re-torque head another time enough. Come to think of it just now, I will try to seal Trixie again,this time sans gasket - only Hylomar, if Combats can take it w/o fouling or detonating on 87 octane.

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As it happens, I have the head off my 750 right now. Head gasket failed at the pushrod tunnel area and started passing large amounts of oil. Genuine flame ring gasket, installed dry, head retorqued as Windy says above. That was 9000 miles ago. Comnoz says to retorque every year. I never did (until it started leaking) but the bolts always seemed tight. It's hard to get those sleeve nuts torqued properly though. All I can get on them is my curved boxend 1/4 W spanner. I probably didn't have them at the full 25 ft-lbs. Don't know if that had anything to do with the failure.

Just looked at the new gasket this morning. The lettering is on one side only and it does indeed say Reinz and Victor, as Windy said. Also "0.75" and "AFM".

I'll be getting both the head and the block checked for flatness before putting it back together. I didn't do that on the rebuild.

Debby

debby said:

I probably didn't have them at the full 25 ft-lbs.

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http://britmoto.com/manuals/Manuals/750_man.pdf

Torque settings

Cylinder head nuts and bolts
3/8" = 30 ft.lb.
5/16" = 20 ft.lb

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.

ludwig said:

why not try your own excrements after a week long diet on bananas ? ( WITH peel , for extra fibre )

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Any particular variety of banana?

Sorry, but as a lifelong lurker, this comment is the funniest thing i have seen in a long time and almost made me burst out laughing and I had to reply.

Thank you ludwig.

Just for giggles...flame ring must just mean fiber with steel edging crimped in place. There is probably no such thing as genuine. I've seen 3 versions over the years.
They used to come WITHOUT thermoset glue. When I was doing frequent head removals in the old days I would reuse the same gasket many times without incident...now a days the damned glue allows one use and that's it. My view is that it is purely a marketing decision since IMO they are not any better than the old ones without glue...now you MUST buy a new one. I don't use copper... and never felt the need to so far (20+ years)
If I found a stash of early no-glue ones I would eagerly hoard them. Great when doing R&D work without the pain of scraping the head and barrel each time.

ludwig sounds like he's been smoking our processed though peels.

Trixie got re-torqued a couple times after each initial heat cycle for sealed function then less and less checking though last summer as stayed tight till sometime durring the 450 mile days and ugh a bump through the head steady, she began smoking on L side then R side a spell then settled on current L side, except last pm I started her to video the smoke but she hardly did yet just the day prior smoked so bad I couldn't bring myself to pollute world and coke er up, ugh.

So there are copper gaskets and Al gaskets and at least 3 grades of composite/steel ring with and w/o glue plus for sure one that cereal box with copper colored cigarette foil wrapper.

Btw ludwig I don't wimp out on merry cherry red copper anealling, un huh, no Sir ree Bod, I go for orange-yellowish that leaves copper able to take a finger print impression and no work hardening fast water quench neither, just flat supported air cool then scrub pad off oxidation and careful supported handling to place in service, with or w/o sealant. Trixie's barrels are really ole Peel's which had Nortons universal .003" cylinder top slant shaved level and head detailed by expert.

Ok I see the writing on the wall now, ain't no way to expect permanent sealing with any gasket in too many of our best cared for steeds, so, this post is at a dead end for me and will open a new one on an other way around this - that still keeps Trixie all Norton.

debby said:

As it happens, I have the head off my 750 right now. Head gasket failed at the pushrod tunnel area and started passing large amounts of oil. Genuine flame ring gasket, installed dry, head retorqued as Windy says above. That was 9000 miles ago. Comnoz says to retorque every year. I never did (until it started leaking) but the bolts always seemed tight. It's hard to get those sleeve nuts torqued properly though. All I can get on them is my curved boxend 1/4 W spanner. I probably didn't have them at the full 25 ft-lbs. Don't know if that had anything to do with the failure.

Just looked at the new gasket this morning. The lettering is on one side only and it does indeed say Reinz and Victor, as Windy said. Also "0.75" and "AFM".

I'll be getting both the head and the block checked for flatness before putting it back together. I didn't do that on the rebuild.

Debby

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Debby, for the sleeved nuts, I could only get at them with the spanner, torque wrench and socket wouldnt work. You can use a spring type fish scale to measure the torque when using a spanner. Slide pipe over the spanner, use some tie wire to hook the scale on at the two foot mark(from bolt centre) and pull on the scale to 12 lbs to get 24 foot pounds, 15 lbs for 30 foot pounds etc.

Glen

This is from an earlier post I posted to stop the leaking in the head. And yes, the gaskets are made by Victor/Heinz.
Surfacing the head is very important as well as the new type valve seals with the spring around them.

The earlier post:


I had all the leaks you have there and now my bike is completely drip free. This is what I did to cure it.
I had 2 pulled studs in the head up front so when I got them repaired I also surfaced the head.
I removed the 4 studs for the front rocker covers, cleaned out the threads in the head and locktited them back in.
I then took all the covers and resurfaced them by sanding them with emery cloth on a flat surface like a slab of granite going in a circular motion until it was completely flat.
You'll be able to see it.
I them removed the 2 studs in the barrels near the pushrod tunnels, cleaned out the threads with lacquer thinner.
I plugged the pushrod tunnels with paper towels as well as the stud holes and oil drain hole and used a NEW flat file and ran it flat across the surface of the barrels over the stud holes as the metal was raised around the studs holes. Just a couple of passes showed that they were raised enough to cause me concern and made me think that was one of the causes of the head leak.
After all that was done I used a shop vac to suck out the paper towels and filings.
I then loctited the 2 studs into the barrels making absolutely sure all threads were completely clean.
I took a new flame ring gasket and ever so slightly smeared hi-temp silicone on both sides of the gasket around the pushrod tunnel areas and the oil hole area.
I then assembled the head torqueing it in 3 stages.
I let it sit over night and retorqued it again before starting it up.
I let it run for 15 minutes, let it cool over night and torqued it again.
I rode it for about 50 miles nice and easy. Let it cool over night again. Torqued it again for the third time.
I did this retorque 5 times because the application of silicone to the head gasket adds some thickness to the gasket.
I also installed a reed breather I got from MikesXS http://www.mikesxs.net/products-40.html#products
It is also important to not over tighten the 2 long nuts in the front bottom of the head.

If you follow these instruction to the letter you to will be leak free.
Plus the spindle gasket and the rocker oil line copper washer should be replaced too.
That breather is real important. I've got pics on how I routed it.

Off The Capt. Norton Notes

Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:37:34 +0100 (BST)
From: D.J. Walker

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I find the business of using copper head gaskets on Commandos questionable, and I think I've intimated as much, before. If the flame ringer gaskets are blowing, on a standard bike, even a standard Combat, something's wrong with the head/cylinder seal. It's not worth starting a flame war over, however, so that's as much as I'll say.

Another thing about what's been said regarding the "differential heating" of the iron cylinders and alloy head and crank cases, is that the flame-ring head gasket is specially designed to compensate for this fact, because it is treated with a different variation on hylomar gasket-sealing compound on its top, and bottom, faces. The bottom face is treated with a brand of hylomar specially developed for binding to cast iron; the top, with a variety designed for aluminium. That's why you must never, ever, use silicon-based gasket sealers, when fitting a flame ring type gasket - fit them dry, the built-in sealant in the gasket will do a far better job than anything you could butter it up with afterwards. Also, although there's a hole on either side, at the rear of the gasket (implying that you can put it in either way up), these gaskets are labeled pretty clearly, with the word "TOP", on their upper faces, signifying which way up it's supposed to go. The other hole is only there to make sure nothing goes amiss, if the gasket _is_ inadvertantly fitted upside down.

I can re-use a flamering gasket on my 850 as many times as the holes for the studs will last, but that's because I made sure and refaced the head and barrels, and make sure I follow the torque-sequence Les Emery described to me, once (torque all the bolts as in the book, then give the central 1/4Whit-headed cyclethread bolt - that's number 1, in the torque-sequence - an extra 5ft/lbs. This works every time, and I never have a gasket blow on me: and remember, _I'm_ the "Airbourne" man!). Am I bragging? Well, yes, sort of, but there really isn't a need for copper IMHO. "Copper _Gaskets_? This is the 1970s, man!"

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Regarding the fitment of bigger sprockets to Commandos, I tend to agree with the view that to treat this approach as the cure for engine wear during high-speed cruising, is something that should be regarded with caution. I've recently gone back to a 19-tooth sprocket, from a 21-toother, and it's fair to say I ride fairly agressively (I'm delighted to find I can now do rolling wheelies whilst travelling downhill, for instance, whilst power wheelies are performed by giving the bike 2 1/2 thousand revs, dropping the cutch, and shouting "Airbourne" at the top of your voice).

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hobot said:

Off The Capt. Norton Notes

Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:37:34 +0100 (BST)
From: D.J. Walker

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Another thing about what's been said regarding the "differential heating" of the iron cylinders and alloy head and crank cases, is that the flame-ring head gasket is specially designed to compensate for this fact, because it is treated with a different variation on hylomar gasket-sealing compound on its top, and bottom, faces. The bottom face is treated with a brand of hylomar specially developed for binding to cast iron; the top, with a variety designed for aluminium.

That's why you must never, ever, use silicon-based gasket sealers, when fitting a flame ring type gasket - fit them dry, the built-in sealant in the gasket will do a far better job than anything you could butter it up with afterwards.

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My advice suggest using a little sillycone.
Bad advice I guess.
I never knew about the composition of the head gaskets.
I should stick to setting tile and stop giving out advice.
BTW, not a leak out of my head so far. Guess I'm lucky.

Well well well, Fair Spares sent me a current-now-a-days- Flamering gasket sealed with Anover Norton Green Globe real deal label. My heart is saddened to see its the same thing as the one shown with cracked ring still in the bag. To me it looks
like only a pretty good upgrade in darker color with tougher looking paper, that's constructed with a bit heavier steel foil ring compared to

The absolute worst damaging cheap cardboard/ copper foil gasket Trixie blew out in 10 miles just going to work w/o a ticket. There is no apparent adhesive on either side as past flamering had with a powerdry silver appearance. Will ping Phil to find out what to do with it, add adhesive or not and others complaints or not. And I thought I was going have a good photo of what I remember served Ms Peel so well.