first start messy

concours · Apr 7, 2013

Any chance all that happened is a LOT of assembly lube just fouled the plugs? In the (broke child) world of two-stroke dirt bikes. we'd burn them clean with a propane torch and rock on.

mike996 · Apr 7, 2013

"I just took a look inside the rocker and there doesn't seem to be any excess oil anywhere "

You need to run the engine with the intake rocker cover off while observing to see if the oil is draining fast enough. That's the only way to actually tell what's going on re drainage. If you can get the engine started, let it warm up a bit and then run it at around 1500 RPM while observing. If there is any problem keeping up with oil flow at that RPM, it will be a bigger problem at normal operating RPM.

The base washer for one of the valve springs - I can't remember which side - can almost cover the drain hole in the rocker box. Check that as well.

Dances with Shrapnel · Apr 7, 2013

sprocket750 said:
Dances with Shrapnel said:

My hunch is one or more of the oil control ring expanders is overlapped. It's really easy to do.

The expanders are the squiggly thing between the two rails and should but together in the groove.

Click to expand...

I know little about the head. Like I mentioned I had that work done professionally. but in this quote are you referring to squiggly things on the rocker spindle that sandwich the rocker arm?

Not sure what to do here, I guess I should drain the case first, somehow clean the jugs out with the head on, then what?

Caught me at an excitable moment. The squiggly things you are referring to in the head are Thackery Washers.

You mentioned "new rings" so I am thinking you put new rings on the pistons. The bottom ring is oil control and is usually a three piece item with the mIddle piece being the squiggly thing.

I doubt the head is the issue as Goff knows his shit. You may have inadvertently blanked off an oil return hole on the head or base gasket so look and see if intake spring pockets are flooded with oil.

A flooded crankcase is certainly plausible and easy to check.

Heed the caution of others who posted here and said check the easy stuff first.

So did you install new rings on the pistons?

Let us know how it goes.

sprocket750 · Apr 7, 2013

oh, I see. yeah, new rings, standard and honed the jugs.

concours · Apr 7, 2013

sprocket750 said:
oh, I see. yeah, new rings, standard and honed the jugs.

Was that bore measured accurately? Either by you or the machinist?

I personally had to go in and mop up the mess after a Britbike shop deemd my buddies Trident "good enough", honed it and put in standard rings. Smoked so bad, it was unusable. I hope this isn't the case here.

Dances with Shrapnel · Apr 7, 2013

Pushing oil the way you describe suggests rings. Even with a crankcase full of oil I doubt you would see what you described but as I said (as have others on this thread) check the easy stuff first.

Is/was the crankcase flooded with oil?
Are the intake valve spring pockets flooded with oil immediately after running (indicates blocked oil return gallery between head and crankcase).
Maybe excessive crankcase pressure - breather installed and functioning correctly?

sprocket750 · Apr 7, 2013

the bore to piston honestly no, the ring gap was done properly to spec.

Dances with Shrapnel · Apr 7, 2013

Pushing oil the way you describe suggests oil control ring. Even if the second scraper ring were installed downside up I doubt you would have oil wetting.

Generally ring gap is a decent rough indicator of bore oversize but not bore condition.

sprocket750 · Apr 7, 2013

I ordered another head gasket. gonna pull it this week.

Dances with Shrapnel · Apr 7, 2013

sprocket750 said:
"suggests rings" suggest they are doing what?

yes the crank case breather is attached back to the tank.

See my original (first) post on this thread. If you overlapped the expander ring (squiggly piece of the three piece oil control ring) then you have little to no oil control.

Is the oiling happening on both cylinders?

Is the crankcase flooded with oil after running. Pull the engine drain plug and there should be no more than a half tea cup of oil that free drains out immediately.

Having a hell of a time typing all this on my cell phone with the altitude and alcohol.

sprocket750 · Apr 7, 2013

Ok cool thanks man, I really don't think I overlapped the expander rings....I think I remember they had colored ends and I clipped them so that they would meet and not overlap. going to sleep on it, drain all the oil out and put a new head gasket on sometime this week. thanks all

concours · Apr 7, 2013

sprocket750 said:
Ok cool thanks man, I really don't think I overlapped the expander rings....I think I remember they had colored ends and I clipped them so that they would meet and not overlap. going to sleep on it, drain all the oil out and put a new head gasket on sometime this week. thanks all

Ouch. That doesn't sound good. They should not have needed to be clipped.

Holmeslice · Apr 7, 2013

sprocket750 said:
Ok cool thanks man, I really don't think I overlapped the expander rings....I think I remember they had colored ends and I clipped them so that they would meet and not overlap. going to sleep on it, drain all the oil out and put a new head gasket on sometime this week. thanks all

Oh dear.

The expander rings are large enough to keep the rails against the cylinder walls. If you cut them, no more oil scraping. Whoops!

swooshdave · Apr 7, 2013

Good news! You probably have found the problem!

Dances with Shrapnel · Apr 7, 2013

swooshdave said:
Good news! You probably have found the problem!

And the Marquis de Sade award goes to swooshdave.

Sounds like sprocket750 has his work cut out for him.

Matt Spencer · Apr 7, 2013

Just leave out all the rings, therll be less friction .

sprocket750 · Apr 8, 2013

I thought they were just there to keep the wiper rings apart?

the squiggly ring between the two wipers? we are talking about the same thing right? yeah I clipped that, it seemed to big and I thought the ends needed to meet.

rpatton · Apr 8, 2013

sprocket750 said:
I thought they were just there to keep the wiper rings apart? the squiggly ring between the two wipers? we are talking about the same thing right? yeah I clipped that, it seemed to big and I thought the ends needed to meet.

I happen to have an oil ring set that came with 20 over 750's from Total Seal that are still in the bag if you need them.

sprocket750 · Apr 8, 2013

rpatton said:
sprocket750 said:

I thought they were just there to keep the wiper rings apart? the squiggly ring between the two wipers? we are talking about the same thing right? yeah I clipped that, it seemed to big and I thought the ends needed to meet.

Click to expand...

I happen to have an oil ring set that came with 20 over 750's from Total Seal that are still in the bag if you need them.

that would be great! I was just now looking, and can't find them seperate from a new set of rings. I can paypal you today. PM me your address.

Dances with Shrapnel · Apr 8, 2013

sprocket750 said:
I thought they were just there to keep the wiper rings apart? the squiggly ring between the two wipers? we are talking about the same thing right? yeah I clipped that, it seemed to big and I thought the ends needed to meet.

The expander does hold the two rails apart but it also "expands" the two oil control rings for tension in the bore, thus the term "expander".

Innocent mistake.

first start messy

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