Fireflake Bronze paint

I sent a set of tins off to a fellow in FL(that for now will remain nameless :evil: )to have them painted Fireflake Bronze and after 9 months and $2000 he finally sent them back and they look like shit. The color is brown and there are no two flakes that touch. I am going to paint them myself and have been doing some research on the flakes in the original paint. I had read that Norton used only silver flakes in the paint for the metal tanks and side covers but I had trouble believing it when I looked at the bike, it looked like there was more than one color of flake. I took a side panel off today and took some closeups of the paint.

In this shot it looks like two or more colors of flake. Of course the shadows will have an effect.



This is a part of the brace that was apparently painted black after the panel was painted with Fireflake Bronze. It looks like two colors of flake, red and silver, but there is red splotches that seem to cover the red flakes and actually spill over onto the base color, and that made me wonder if it was the tinted clear that had some pigment heavy spots in it. You can see the base color in a few spots that weren't completely covered with the tinted clear and also how thick the clear is where it is chipped on the edge.



This is the back of the sidecover where it was just dusted with the clear-flake coat and it(to me)clearly shows that there was two colors of flake, red and silver.


What do you fellas think?

GUTS said:

I had read that Norton used only silver flakes in the paint for the metal tanks and side covers but I had trouble believing it when I looked at the bike, it looked like there was more than one color of flake. I took a side panel off today and took some closeups of the paint.

Click to expand...

What color is your sidecover overall, when viewed from afar ?
Fireflake Bronze or Fireflake Golden Bronze seems to come in even more shades than other fireflake colors.
Some seem to be more bronze, and some more goldy... (?)

After a lot of 2-and-fro-ing, it has been firmly settled here that Nortons had a number of versions of fireflake colors over the years.
The early versions were in the fibreglass gelcoat, some with a transparent color overpaint,
and the later versions were all painted, so it is dangerous being too dogmatic.

My what seems to be a later NOS Fireflake Blue sidecover has stray blue tinted flakes oversprayed on the back,
so it definitely had tinted flakes in clearcoat, on a painted colored basecoat.
And B-bogus here has done some very authentic and marvellous looking fireflake repaints using tinted flakes, so the tinted flakes clearly win.

Have you found a source for bronze/gold tinted flakes ?
That 2 tone flake color looks interesting to reconstruct.

This sidecover (fibreglass) has been on fleabay, for quite some time.
Pinstripes look somewhat constricted, so may be a repaint (?).



Hopethishelps.

P.S. Should we ask what year your bike is ?
Should have asked that 1st....

It's this 1973 Commando, the one you guys helped me bring to life last fall.


Here is one of the sidecovers, original paint.

We remember, nice strong looking bronze fireflake, nice bike.

Did you supply the paint guy with an original, for him to try to match ?
I bought some paint recently (not fireflake) but showed him my ffblue sidecover,
shook his head and said the flakes were bigger than anything he could supply.

$2000? You could get a Lincoln Town Car painted for that.

We might need to ask what condition the parts were in that were supplied though. ?

I've taken some junk in (entirely different painters of course) to see if it could be rescued,
and it came back looking like new...

A correctly done Fireflake Norton paintjob should not have any base-coat showing.
It seems this is the preserve of the custom car scene where they get the overall effect with fewer flakes, but not so with Nortons.
There was another similar thread a while ago, where a Purple bike was showing a lot of basecoat.
I generally use a black basecoat so it's readily apparent when I've achieved full coverage.

Close scrutiny of original FF Bronze paint shows it is two different colours, so the paintshop wasn't in error here, just in the miserly application of the flakes - unless they're made fully aware of how the originals were, they'll just do a 'custom car' job.

This is a photo of an original FF Bronze panel (note the toolbox rivet, and how the flakes turn silver when sanded down) - sorry about the mobile phone quality photo.



And here's one I did earlier.



I've also been guilty of painting a bike in the closest colour I could get until I could study an original - Happy enough with it, but it's not 'correct' (a little too orange).



The early bikes certainly used silver flakes in the fibreglass gelcoat, and the red ones were sprayed with candy red like this early Fastback tank, but I'm 100% positive that the later bikes used coloured flakes - not a candy colour over silver.



For $2000 territory I could supply a brand new Roadster paintset in metalflake blue, purple, bronze, silver or green, and no I'm not joking.

This is the bike that I restored for a friend of mine. He found this guy in FL and had me send the tins to him. I didn't like the idea but I couldn't change his mind. I was going to try to paint them myself at a friends body shop. I wish I would have know you paint these because I would have gladly sent them to you. The tank and side covers are brand new, they were white metal when they were sent to the clown in Fl so he shouldn't have had any problems with condition before he started.

Here is the original compared to the new painted tin, it's not even close.

He did a nice job of not painting them much, didn't he !!

I'd be tempted to send him pics of what it should look like and what it does look like,
and ask what he is going to do about it ?
Say you want the rest of your paint you payed for.....

Although this may provoke more trouble than its worth.
And he does look to have just used silver flakes too.
$2k seems way over the top though, what would he charge for a car, as mentioned ??

I actually sent the jackwagon an original side cover to use and he didn't even send it back. My friend had me send the tank and fenders at the same time for the Harley SS175 I restored this winter and we haven't got those back yet so that's why I am not saying anything to him till we do.

This is the place that we sent them to. The guys name is George and he is the king of the bullshitters.
http://www.motorcyclegastankservices.com/

B+Bogus said:

A correctly done Fireflake Norton paintjob should not have any base-coat showing.
It seems this is the preserve of the custom car scene where they get the overall effect with fewer flakes, but not so with Nortons.
There was another similar thread a while ago, where a Purple bike was showing a lot of basecoat.
I generally use a black basecoat so it's readily apparent when I've achieved full coverage.

Close scrutiny of original FF Bronze paint shows it is two different colours, so the paintshop wasn't in error here, just in the miserly application of the flakes - unless they're made fully aware of how the originals were, they'll just do a 'custom car' job.

This is a photo of an original FF Bronze panel (note the toolbox rivet, and how the flakes turn silver when sanded down) - sorry about the mobile phone quality photo.

And here's one I did earlier.

I've also been guilty of painting a bike in the closest colour I could get until I could study an original - Happy enough with it, but it's not 'correct' (a little too orange).

The early bikes certainly used silver flakes in the fibreglass gelcoat, and the red ones were sprayed with candy red like this early Fastback tank, but I'm 100% positive that the later bikes used coloured flakes - not a candy colour over silver.

For $2000 territory I could supply a brand new Roadster paintset in metalflake blue, purple, bronze, silver or green, and no I'm not joking.

Click to expand...

What would you charge him to redo the tins?

Here is a NOS Firflake Bronze Fastback tank I have. For comparison to other pics that were posted. I have a Fastback original tail also. Hope it may help what it looked like original.

GUTS said:

Here is the original compared to the new painted tin, it's not even close.

Click to expand...

I was in an automotive paint store recently, discussing different shades and effects with the resident mixmaster. The process the freshly painted cover illustrates is what he referred to as "pearl" ( no, not pearlescent paint, pearl flakes in a clear or tinted overcoat on top of solid basecoat). It comes in several different flake shades in several different tinted semi-clears (the possibilities are endless) and is that distinctly different when compared to a metalflake paint. The flakes in metalflake (or "Fireflake, as it were) are aluminum foil and if they are tinted, are likely anodized before shredding. This is why there is a certain amount of silver flakes among the tinted ones, because not all land face up and only one side is anodized. This makes for a unique, unmatchable job each time and it the reason tinted flakes are less popular than silver, which takes on the color of it's overcoat. The pearl flakes are the same color on either side and are acrylic rather than metal.

Think we'd have to see some pearl paint examples to see what they look like.

I've done some pearls on other things, and they didn't remotely look like fireflake paints.
And B+Bogus has some convincing looking repaints there with colored flakes.

The green sample flakes I have to try ff green are green all over.
But not quite large enough flake to emulate Nortons ff green.
There are larger flakes available, still thinking about it...

Rohan said:

Think we'd have to see some pearl paint examples to see what they look like.

I've done some pearls on other things, and they didn't remotely look like fireflake paints.
And B+Bogus has some convincing looking repaints there with colored flakes.

The green sample flakes I have to try ff green are green all over.
But not quite large enough flake to emulate Nortons ff green.
There are larger flakes available, still thinking about it...

Click to expand...

In the case of "pearls" it's the flake that's pearlescent and reflective of different colors as anything pearlescent is prismatic. Possibly those green flakes were made of alumimum foil that was anodized on both sides. As shown, when sanded, the colored flakes turn silver as all the thin anodizing comes off. I'm only using the terminology the mixer guy at the paint store uses. The "pearl" samples he had were semi-clear overcoats with sparse distribution of flakes, just like the re-painted cover illustrated.

Considering you submitted a sample to match,.... that's some Piss poor work. I'm not saying that they guy didn't have a fine finish on the parts, just that he can't match the sample to save his life...

My Dad was the foreman of a finishing shop for 35 years. He could match anything. He was never happy unless it was exact. A close match wasn't acceptable. I learned a lot from my dad, and he never stopped schooling me with his skills. I don't think I could match that fireflake sample, but I also know enough not to claim I can.

This florida painter's match isn't even close.... If his contract was to match the sample, he didn't deliver that.

Well in no way do I claim to be the expert on these, but I've done a number of flake jobs for customers. As pointed out, each one tends to be just a bit different, so when I did this bronze flake job for Ken Armann Restorations in Northern California, I explained to Ken and in turn his customer that owned the bike, that the extra side cover he sent me to match his steel tins to was the original fiberglass gelcoat. And what I was doing was spraying on a modern finish. And while I could not get a perfect match, I assured him I would get pretty close. I've included some pics below for example. I was pleased and Ken seemed to think I did pretty well. Keep in mind these are difficult to photograph accurately. As for the $2000 pricetag, well I charge about half of that. Have you tried to get some type or refund or partial refund?
Brent
http://www.vintage-vendor.com

This first shot shows the orig glass side cover on the left and my representation on a steel cover on the right-


And this is the end result-

This gem was on aussie fleabay as fireflake golden bronze.
Maybe more golden than bronze, and certainly fireflake - pretty spiffy just the same...

Click this link if you can't see the whole bike.
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/M10AAOSwopRYdFVF/s-l1600.jpg