Finally getting there

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Ohhhh ok, so it can only support up to 185 HorsePower...
huh...
Finally getting there
 
comnoz said:
I am thrilled to say the first of the production fuel injection units has been installed and is running.

Very nice! Just two questions out of curiosity: How's the signal quality for the crankshaft sensor as it's a bit close to the alternator? Did you have any trouble with this? And how do you start the bike, is it still possible to use the kicker or does your EFI need an eletric boot?


Tim
 
ludwig said:
Tim ,
Jim mentioned kickstarting in reply # 4 .

Ah, now, yes.... :wink:

That's an interesting idea of using a second ignition circuit. It's exactly the problem I'm trying to figure out with the megasquirt I want to put on the Atlas but I want to do this without a secondary circuit - tricky but I think I might have an idea (which will probably not work out so....;-) ).


Tim
 
Cheesy said:
... or are you running more teeth on the pickup to make it think its running faster?

More teeth means better resolution. On a STD system the pickup is signaling only once or twice per revolution. A common automotive trigger disc is e.g. a so called 36-1. This means is has its teeth spaced out at ten degree increments (hence 36) and one of them is missing (hence -1). The pickup is "high" every ten degrees except for the missing tooth. The software uses this missing signal to detect an absolute position of the crankshaft whereas the following 35 incidents then only give a relative position.

This is used for two basic things (I'm over-simplifying a bit...): By the higher resolution it is more precise and thus easier to detect the correct ignition and injection "time window" and changes in engine speed are detected faster than with a STD setup.

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/wheel.htm


Tim
 
Ok I've recovered some composure of Jim's EFI potential for Ms Peel.
I know Commando can be made to out handle rigid sports bikes > so
also want my 'Commando' to match or maybe best em in straight sprints.

I can only imagine the many dead end efforts/expenses to create
a practical road going version. So I've been pensive to pry into
details that cost so much to learn. I'm also pensive its over my
head to install incorporate integrate or assimilate. No kids here
just me.

I'm open to fates/karma enough to get a flash that maybe JIm's
kit's had Ms Peel in mind, as Peel may be one of the few Cdo's
with lots of excess electric current for pump, solenoids and CPU's,
even at 400 rpm idle with voltage sensing 600 watt Alternator.
Hope not to carry much battery plate lead around to make up
some Alternator mass removed off crank nearer the Cdo's CoG.

Peel may have the greatest need of wide scope of fueling than
prior Commando type engines and operation envelopes.
Hardest to tune condition is heavy loaded 'lugging' up low
traction slopes needing hi throttle but not hi rpms.
Easiest is WOT drag strip, sweepers and chicanes in between.

Ignition system is the pivotal device to drive EFI, then all the sensors.
I spent $~500 for optic trigger'd [dozens & dozens digital blips per
revolution resolution] and total curve control of 3 sparks
with 4 separate curves-rpm limits selectable on the fly.
Not eager to buy two more new ignitions systems JIm's requires.

Don't know if Peel's Powerarc system is comparable with Jim's. EFi.
Also Peel-me is vain and trying to keep most wires/gizmo's
mounted out of sight within thickness of frame spine and
rear loop. No side covers, just under frame trays/plates.
But nice looking components could hang out here
and there as some must I'm sure.

Conservative data in engine Calculators implies Peel could
be pressed to force flow ~225 cfm mixture. 150-160 cfm = ~100 HP.
Plugging in Bruce's boost report on his 850, adding hi octane gives
too ridiculous figures to post.
Current carb can't support full potential. Might not stand full potential.

hobot
 
It can't be stated often enough - to run 70+ HP with a Commando engine, you'd better have a guaranteed near-perfect bottom end.

To run 100HP+, you better have the high end aftermarkt stuff, OR ELSE.
 
Steve, is your magnificent obsession of extraordinary expense and time worth it?

From your postings, it seems like your main focus is to make your some 37 year old bike compete with modern sport bikes.

But why?

Modern sport bikes have vastly superior frames, tires, suspension components, and right off the showroom floor can do quarter mile times in the
ten second range, coupled with top ends of some 160mph. All with spending only $9000 on a new Honda 600.

What is the point of forcing your Commando with your time and lots of money to "try" to stay with them?

What does it prove?

Why not just enjoy the hell of out riding a well sorted out Commando without all the extra money and emotion of fighting present day technology?
If you really want to beat the squids that bad, then go buy a used GXSR for far less than you spend on your Commando?
 
Math, no one said there would be any math. That's it, I'm sticking to the wet sumping posts.
 
Hehe highderset,

I've already learned how easy it is to blow by elite sport bikes
with angery heated up riders risking their lives for nothing.
Bikes no longer even enter my mind as corner competition anymore,
just that's only thing other bikers can relate to. If Peel gave only a neck
and neck cornering contest, yeah, everthing you say and others
would apply - why bother.

Peel is rather better than what
ya see in road racers to flat trackers and supermotards.
Peel is still in non thrilling rates when already exceeding
sports bike bland two tire traction counter steering limits.
Peel is still in non thrilling rates when crossed up spining
life a flat tracker but no need to put a food down.
Pashaw, there is at least rather faster ways no delaying
way around turns than two tire planted counter steering.
I know what yo'all missing out on, so just power plant to
match needed. Guess what happens if ya run out of
power while rear skewed along side pilot's hip area.
I've taken off stem stop to go further out and not crash.

Need More Power Scotty, >>>
Jim Comstock EFI is like showing me Warp speed drive ripe Di-Lithium Anti-matter fueling to push along a Kyptonite Commando chassis.

hobot - when Peel lets hair out in turns its pulled straight back
down into rear tire patch, not sideways, as long as power band climbs.
 
Steve, The dual ignition system is all part of the fuel injection. 45 kv voltage with timing done from a 144 entry lookup table . It uses RPM, throttle position and manifold pressure-vacuum on the main lookup table, engine temperature, barometric pressure and ambient temperature are all used to compensate the figure from the lookup table. It also has the ability to use a knock sensor if so desired.
It is capable of compensating for boose pressure up to 8 psi as it comes and if you wanted to blow it up instantly a different MAP sensor could make it good for about 50 psi boost. Jim
 
Thanks for expanding the EFI components and EFI accessories Jim.
Able to adapt to boost, just pick the right sensor, excellent.
Your EFI announcement is a bit late for Peel's first re-incarnation.
I assume its an all or nothing kit to integrate spark and fuel system.
I'll have to give some attention to providing places for the
list of sensors, just in case I come crawling back for more more more.

Curious what you have in mind as market for such an over kill system.
I'd guess $1500 ball park - discounted.
I think most race classes would out law it and carbs work pretty
well on sanely ridden Commando's.

Please update as able and willing.
I quite well remember Lake of the Pines wave of excitement
at your arrival on Fuel Injected Commando and its easy
start, steady idle and occult plumbing matrix.

hobot
 
Curious what you have in mind as market for such an over kill system.
I'd guess $1500 ball park - discounted.
I think most race classes would out law it and carbs work pretty
well on sanely ridden Commando's.

Please update as able and willing.
I quite well remember Lake of the Pines wave of excitement
at your arrival on Fuel Injected Commando and its easy
start, steady idle and occult plumbing matrix.

hobot[/quote]

I am not setting a price yet. I am still working on getting some better deals from suppliers. Definately not vintage race legal.
My Commando is definately an "occult" maze of wiring and plumbing but in actuality most of it is due to the monitoring and dataloging systems installed for development. After a few years of condensing and special parts design the production system is actually very simple and compact. Only one hole needs to be drilled for installation and thats in the back of the chaincase. Jim
 
Made me chuckle, what I took as finished tidy kit was just your
expedient prototype with extra development clutter,
Braggart!

I got as far as figuring out hall sensor mount on the inner case
stud boss that clamps case to cradle to sense magnet in belt pulley.
Found Power arc optic trigger system instead, though Geoff-set cranks
Collins says that system ain't all its advertised and his crank users
gave up on it. Ugh. So, who knows what I'll need in end to be able to
ride Peel someday, in two way trips that is.

hobot - rode SV650 till race tires warmed today, if that's as good
as bikes can handle and stick, it'd be crazy stupid to over power.
Not wonder moderns so obsessed with brakes, they need em
for corners so much and wisely so.
 
comnoz said:
Cheesy said:
If you dont mind a few questions what computer and fuel pump are you running?
Im guessing that it will be electric start as well or are you running more teeth on the pickup to make it think its running faster?

I am using a Keihin fuel pump [although the pump in the picture is a no longer available Subaru pump that I was testing with]
It is kick start, I am using an offshoot of the BG microsquirt ecm. The main modification is a second ignition system to provide the ability to kickstart the bike. [IE spark and fuel before processor synch]. It uses two pickups and two m-n wheels. Jim


So Im guessing you are using the two tooth wheel for the initial ignition event and firing the plugs on from the pickup signal (probably not directly so the microsquirt can start controlling it?). Thats worded badly.... Im guessing the intitial ignition isnt looking up a table but firing off the tooth static timing. Once the ignition event is sorted is it possible for it to fire and run with the prime pulse from the ecu or does this come when the processor fires up and not on power up? Alternativly I guess it would be possible to fire the injectors off for a set pulse width based on the signal from the tooth wheel anyway
 
[
So Im guessing you are using the two tooth wheel for the initial ignition event and firing the plugs on from the pickup signal (probably not directly so the microsquirt can start controlling it?). Thats worded badly.... Im guessing the intitial ignition isnt looking up a table but firing off the tooth static timing. Once the ignition event is sorted is it possible for it to fire and run with the prime pulse from the ecu or does this come when the processor fires up and not on power up? Alternativly I guess it would be possible to fire the injectors off for a set pulse width based on the signal from the tooth wheel anyway[/quote]

The single tooth wheel provides a pulse for a "conventional" last event type timing processor to provide immediate spark and injection. The resolution of a single tooth wheel is too poor to provide acceptable fuel and timing control, so shortly after the processor synches to the 30-1 tooth wheel , fuel and timing control are transferred to that pickup .
That allows the engine to start on the first trigger event. The best that can be done with a single m-n wheel is 3 to 5 steady revolutions before the processor can synch and provide the first spark and even then it may not be timed correctly and cause kickbacks and backfires.
Jim
 
hobot said:
...I know Commando can be made to out handle rigid sports bikes >...

hobot

If only they wouldn't make those sport bikes so darned rigid they may actually be of use on the racetrack.
 
Hehe, Goldielocks found some beds too soft, some too hard,
but then one that was just right. I prefer mine articulated yet tame.

Ya know race tracks keep records of best times by various craft
and they have track days when non race rule bikes and riders allowed out.
Been interviewing visiting riders to learn about the hot shots
and bikes of closest pavement tract around here. There is
a closer dirt/clay track but its just an oval yet would be fun to
try too. I'm tingling at thought of no oncoming traffic on
full street rubber opportunity to objectify pecking order
with a Norton Commando chassis.

hobot
 
hobot said:
Hehe, Goldielocks found some beds too soft, some too hard,
but then one that was just right. I prefer mine articulated yet tame.

Ya know race tracks keep records of best times by various craft
and they have track days when non race rule bikes and riders allowed out.
Been interviewing visiting riders to learn about the hot shots
and bikes of closest pavement tract around here. There is
a closer dirt/clay track but its just an oval yet would be fun to
try too. I'm tingling at thought of no oncoming traffic on
full street rubber opportunity to objectify pecking order
with a Norton Commando chassis.

hobot

Ahh, yah gotta do it Hobot. I've done a few track days on my Manx. I'm not a competitive rider in AHRMA, but I can pass more than my share of modern bikes with inexperienced riders. I've had them follow me in to the paddock and wonder what that secret weapon was that I was riding. When I tell them it's a 500 single that went out of production almost half a century ago they look pretty shocked.

You will find that you can best some of the youngsters on modern sportbikes with your Commando. But it ain't the bikes...
 
hobot said:
...Ya know race tracks keep records of best times by various craft ...

hobot

Oh yeah, I'll bet you'll find that the best time records are not typically vintage iron...
 
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