Fastest Isle of Man Commando?

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In 1973, Peter Williams won the F750 Senior TT, averaging over 105mph over the mountain course.

His performance was magnificent, winning by over three minutes ahead of the second place bike, and he also was brilliant on the British short circuits that year.

In the book, Norton: The Racing Story, attention is given to Peter's very significant involvement in the development of both the frame and engine improvements.

His TT winning bike was quoted as having had some 78 hp, I don't know if this is at the crank or rear wheel.

In the effort to extract as much power as possible without sacrificing race reliability, the valve angles were changed,
larger valves and stronger valve springs were fitted, along with a higher lift camshaft.

Also, the aluminum pushrods were replaced with steel ones, as the former were found to compress and expand unacceptably at very high RPM.

Interestingly, compression was not noted as being increased, presumably stayed the same as the 1972 works Commandos's, around 10/1.

A third bearing was fitted to the primary along with dished sprockets to relieve pressure on the shafts.

Well, the frame was not a real Commando frame, but it did have isolastic engine mounts.

Thus, 1973 was the last banner year for the factory Works race effort, as 1974 saw Peter Williams in very much disagreement over the changes to the frame. And of course by this time the Japanese two stroke fours were putting out well over 100 hp, rendering the long stroke twin virtually obsolete overnight.

End of an era, but Peter Williams was proven correct in his assertion that the ultimate development would still be a four stoke twin. Witness the tremendous success of the Ducati twins in world GP racing.

Interestingly, Norton itself had machined and tested very briefly a desmo 500cc twin in the late 50s!
 
highdesert said:
A third bearing was fitted to the primary along with dished sprockets to relieve pressure on the shafts.

Does anyone have pics of this arraignment?
 
The book does not say what speed Peter was hitting on the mountain straights.

However, it does state that both WIlliams and Reed were clocked at over 150mph in 1972 at Daytona.

Their bikes were of course very specially prepared factory works Commandos.
 
mikegray660 said:
I'm pretty sure hobot has gone faster

Not only that, but he can describe the phases of handling in far greater detail that make very little sense to most readers.

Let's just suffice it to say I'm not riding pillion with him!
 
highdesert said:
Interestingly, Norton itself had machined and tested very briefly a desmo 500cc twin in the late 50s!

Actually, the desmo tested was a 350cc Manx. (single cylinder).
But we won't let the facts get in the way of a good story !!

However, the Domiracer 500cc twin, in manx style frame under Doug Heles guidance, did lap the Isle of Man at over 100 mph, with Tom Phillis on board. Think it was 1961.
Which means the Commando was only a few mph faster...

Cheers.
 
To go 160MPH, they likely spent time in a wind tunnel to get the fairing/rider shapes just right.
 
xbacksideslider said:
To go 160MPH, they likely spent time in a wind tunnel to get the fairing/rider shapes just right.

I would actually doubt that.
Knowing Nortons and how tight their race budget was.....

MotoGuzzi reportedly had the only wind tunnel in the motorcycling world.
(Which is why their 1957 500cc dustbin fairing V8 could lap MIRA at 187 mph ?)

Not to say a wind tunnel couldn't be found somewhere for testing - but they were rather uncommon back then....

??
 
End of an era, but Peter Williams was proven correct in his assertion that the ultimate development would still be a four stoke twin. Witness the tremendous success of the Ducati twins in world GP racing.

I believe Peter is correct and I aim to prove him right while retaining isolastic wonders. Fastest I think I've gone on Ms Peel was 135 - but that's only 3rd gear speed for the next version of Peel. I'd love to play with real racers on THE Gravel, but only on my special Commando thank you. Commandos lose about 9-10% off crank power d/t to drive train friction, pretty good ratio actually compared to moderns. Btw current fastest average IOM lap times are only 25 mph faster than rider Williams record, likely only d/t acceleration and top speed in the opens, not better handling.

Swiss Canteen and kItchen flour canister and spiked dog collars, latex tubing and wire loom braid will help make Peel unapproachable.
 
Upon further reading, I stand corrected on Norton's desmo effort.

Thanks, Rohan, for pointing out the error.
 
I think the fastest I had my Commando up to, with a single Mikuni handling the flow, was 143mph.

I'm quite sure I can better that speed this summer when I hook up both fuel taps.
 
Rohan said:
xbacksideslider said:
To go 160MPH, they likely spent time in a wind tunnel to get the fairing/rider shapes just right.

I would actually doubt that.
Knowing Nortons and how tight their race budget was.....

MotoGuzzi reportedly had the only wind tunnel in the motorcycling world.
(Which is why their 1957 500cc dustbin fairing V8 could lap MIRA at 187 mph ?)

Not to say a wind tunnel couldn't be found somewhere for testing - but they were rather uncommon back then....

??

Norton paid particular attention to aerodynamics and the factory racers had a very low drag coefficient relative to other dolphin-faired machines. Since the bikes were down on horsepower in comparison with the competition, this was one way they could make them faster without compromising reliability. I am trying to remember where I saw the actual figure, but it was in one of the magazines of the day. I would not be surprised to hear that they did some wind tunnel testing. I think it could help to explain the relatively efficient aerodynamic shape.
 
daveh said:
Norton paid particular attention to aerodynamics and the factory racers had a very low drag coefficient relative to other dolphin-faired machines. Since the bikes were down on horsepower in comparison with the competition, this was one way they could make them faster without compromising reliability. I am trying to remember where I saw the actual figure, but it was in one of the magazines of the day. I would not be surprised to hear that they did some wind tunnel testing. I think it could help to explain the relatively efficient aerodynamic shape.

You don't think it was just that Norton twins were a relatively narrow engine, so the fairing was slimmer. ? They don't look anything special in the aerodynamics dept.
Nortons had been racing with fairings for about 15 years by then, since the mid-1950s, so had seen what worked. Those dustbin fairings were wickedly fast, if not exactly good looking. But were banned, of course.

I remember some magazine quoting engine widths, Nortons was just 12 inches (?). This gave them quite an advantage over many - including the across-the-frame TZ700 fours that eventually taking the racing world by storm.

P.S. Not to mention the TZ350, which overall is faired about 6 inches narrower than a Commando (including the riders legs, of course...). Which is why with less hp it could flay a Commando in a fair fight...
 
highdesert said:
...
End of an era, but Peter Williams was proven correct in his assertion that the ultimate development would still be a four stoke twin. Witness the tremendous success of the Ducati twins in world GP racing.
...

But doesn't the MotoGP formula allow Ducati a displacement advantage to be competitive with the Japanese fours? Unless I'm mistaken, the Japanese fours are limited to 1000 cc while Ducati runs 1098 cc. When Ducati was running 900's, I believe the Japanese were limited to 750 cc. From what I've seen every formula in AMA, FIM and MotoGP handicaps the Japanese by limiting their displacement to one below that of the competition. At the most extreme, AMA Formula Extreme limited Japanese fours to 600 cc while Buell's were allowed 1340cc (and the Buell's weren't competitive even with the advantage). This would imply that the inline four is dominant...and I think the race results support the argument.
 
1up3down
I think the fastest I had my Commando up to, with a single Mikuni handling the flow, was 143mph. I'm quite sure I can better that speed this summer when I hook up both fuel taps.
 
hobot said:
1up3down
I think the fastest I had my Commando up to, with a single Mikuni handling the flow, was 143mph. I'm quite sure I can better that speed this summer when I hook up both fuel taps.

Hey Steve, don't forget to attach that second spark plug wire as well!
 
SteveMinning said:
But doesn't the MotoGP formula allow Ducati a displacement advantage to be competitive with the Japanese fours?

Indeed.

Its funny when you think about it - the wheel has come full circle ?
In the early isle of Man TT Races (circa 1907 etc) the twins were allowed a larger capacity than the singles, since the thinking at the time was that twins were less efficient/capable than the singles....
 
However, it does state that both WIlliams and Reed were clocked at over 150mph in 1972 at Daytona.

Peter says that going by the revs/gearing he was doing over 160mph in 1973

Fastest Isle of Man Commando?

Fastest Isle of Man Commando?

Fastest Isle of Man Commando?
 
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