Electronic ignition problem pre-caution

I have fitted numerous electronic systems over the years, Lucas RITA, Boyer and recently Pazon. However, I had a very peculiar problem when swapping over from a old Boyer analogue to a new Pazon Surefire. The bike (850 Mk2) just was hard to start, and a weak spark. The trigger plate and black box was sent back to Pazon who provided a very good warranty support. On their test rig they got perfect results, so there was something else a miss. Now, I had already checked the usual suspects, and the final confirmation is to always wire directly from the battery NEG terminal into the white power lead on the black box.

Pazon could not help with what else might be amiss, so the only thing that had not been returned was the magnetic spinner. This was fine in every respect, strong magnets etc'. I then measured up where the trigger pick up pins protrode from the back plate which is 8mm and that the magnets should pass under the tips of them. Well, they didn't. They spinner is made correctly, but when installed into the nose of the camshaft, the magnets alignment is 3mm too far recessed. In other words, the camshaft is 3mm short!

I then got another Boyer out and measured it pick up pins. They are 9.5mm long and the magnets on the spinner are big chunky blocks that provide enough overlap. That's why this particular 850 would run fine with the Boyer, but not with the Pazon, which is a pity as the Pazon is actually better made and has superior features. I am now going to install the Pazon on a 750 and measure the off-set and give it a go to see how it works anyway.

I have emailed Pazon to see if I can use the Boyer spinner, alternatively I will machine up the Pazon spinner to fit longer magnets.

Mick

...can't help yourself, can you :lol: captK reckons I'm getting as bad as you, just because I fitted a CNW coil to go with the TriSpark :mrgreen:

Too true...can't resist anything new and different even though theres nothing wrong with whats there already! See you around the pool and a few beers next week. Cheers, Mick

ML you may have solved reason I could not get my Surefire to fire a
Combat when everything on check list was found fine. i did not look measure the magnet and post relation as thought that would be set fixed by factory and others had not reported out of the box failures to alert me till now. My only sense of man hood was saved by just putting points back in with a better AAU made up of best of two of them. I have the Surefire but don't know what to use it for now. Thanks for the heads up and sticking to the mystery investigation.

ML said:

The bike (850 Mk2) just was hard to start, and a weak spark.

Mick

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Magnet distance from the triggers should not result in a weak spark.

Just fitted Pazon Altair to a MK11 850 and purr's like a kitten. If the cam is too short, is there something wrong with the cam endfloat, I think 850's had the updated thrust washer, but I do recall an issue with some older set ups. Just check how much endfloat you have?

I set my cam for 5 thou.

Cheers Richard

stockie2 said:

If the cam is too short, is there something wrong with the cam endfloat, Just check how much endfloat you have?

Cheers Richard

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Endfloat is not an issue here, its most likely the nose of the camshaft has just not been finished to the right size. I don't know that is even a Norton factory cam, could be anyone of half a dozen after market versions. What ever the case, the principle is that the magnets must pass in close proximity to the pick up pins to generate a strong signal. I'll speak to Pazon tommorow to get their thoughts on what they see as the limitations.

Mick

ludwig said:

Like shrapnell said , magnet distance can't be the cause of a weak spark .
I don't know how critical the distance is for a Pazon ,

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Thanks Ludwig, good to hear the TriSpark does work in those limits, however I did speak with Pazon this morning and their magentic spinner is a unique design. They emphasised that the very small but powerful magnets MUST pass under the pick pins to produce the optimum signal. The further it gets away from the ends of the poles the signal becomes erratic and will make it hard to start.

They also explained that the Boyer magnets are quite different, and it the Boyer spinner is used with the SureFire trigger plate, the timing signal is most likely to be different, i.e. the spark advance and retard will change and that the clearance to the pick up must be checked as the magnets are not radiused.

Pazon have also had end clearance problems with other Commandos, one case was that the spinner was too far outward, causing it to rub against the back of the trigger plate.

In future, they suggested that they could bring out a new trigger plate with longer pick up pins. In the mean time, I will look at machining a new spinner. I tried inserting a shim spacer into the end of the camshaft but the timing got very erratic at 4,000 RPM I suspect because the cam taper was not adequately seated at that offset causing the spinner to oscillate.

hobot said:

ML you may have solved reason I could not get my Surefire to fire a
Combat...

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Not trying to boast or say you did anything wrong, Hobot fellow Nortoneer, but Pazon Surefire installed on my Combat w/in minutes...fit perfect, static timing w/in 2 degrees of true. Once strobed and set, now a one-kick, 1000 RPM steady idle, screaming delivery ever since....Combat transformed. Happy enough to post my results on the feedback section of Andy's site.

cmessenk said:

hobot said:

ML you may have solved reason I could not get my Surefire to fire a
Combat...

Click to expand...

Not trying to boast or say you did anything wrong, Hobot fellow Nortoneer, but Pazon Surefire installed on my Combat w/in minutes...fit perfect, static timing w/in 2 degrees of true. Once strobed and set, now a one-kick, 1000 RPM steady idle, screaming delivery ever since....Combat transformed. Happy enough to post my results on the feedback section of Andy's site.

Click to expand...

not to say that there isn't a problem w/ it but - i have one on my MkII 850 runs perfect and took minutes to set up - i'd be really surprised (as Ludwig said) if that small distance of your camshaft is causing the problem - to long distance would be no spark or intermittent - but then i am no longer surprised by anything

as richard others suggested maybe endfloat problem is magnified by pazon setup/rotor - of course are you going to split it or run a boyer?

Not trying to boast or say you did anything wrong, Hobot fellow Nortoneer, but Pazon Surefire installed on my Combat w/in minutes...fit perfect, static timing w/in 2 degrees of true. Once strobed and set, now a one-kick, 1000 RPM steady idle, screaming delivery ever since....Combat transformed. Happy enough to post my results on the feedback section of Andy's site.

Click to expand...

Already did a past post on the Pazion to end up with only a few instances of sparks so put back points and ain't looked back - so far. Everything to the magnetic polarity and ohm values checked out so what else remains to check but the trigger distance I didn't think might be an issue. Its for sale not because I think its a bad product but was merely a stop gap till AAU sorted and its not up to Ms Peels needs.

I've run and installed 3 Black box Boyers with all their issues experienced and solved to swear off them mainly for the sluggish response curve. I sent back SureFire brain box for another but didn't open it so its now un-run new again.

Steve, how much do you want for it as I am alredy looking at a second project, although Andy from Pazon lives 20 minutes ride from me , that is 11 mins on Mrs Peel!!!
Regards Mike

I would get the Altair version, the timing curve is the current trend on the Altair, I think the Sure-Fire was similar to the Boyer MK111, real savage advance at low speed. I can't say for sure but, with the Boyer fitted, my 850 was uncomfortably jumpy at off idle, before the ISO's cut in at 2500 RPM now with the Altair the curve has a little blip right at 1000 RPM to try and encourage the engine to reside there, then the curve dips and starts the advance curve proper.
All this is done at a nice low advance, whereas the MK111 Boyer had a sharp curve at these low RPM's.
I could be wrong, happy to stand corrected, but I can notice a much more pleasant Commando now!

Cheers Richard

Just looked over the Altair version and the pick up is totally different on this Pazon set up, the pick up rotor is a drum style with a cut out that is positioned right through the pick up plate, no magnets, but a hall effect I think. So end-float variations would not be critical on this particular set up. Hope this helps.

Cheers Richard :evil: