EI over POINTS IGNITION

Status
Not open for further replies.
olympus

olympus

Joined
Aug 5, 2017
Messages
1,401
Country flag
Hi all
The reasons for me fitting an EI system over points ignition is a no brainier as i have always hated gaping points. But can i ask..... You often hear about people claiming exaggerated power increase figures??.
We always think that when a system is fitted it starts easier, gives smoother crisper acceleration etc.. but is this fact or just the mind concluding that is this system is fitted it just must be better?
Has anyone actually conducted trials with a commando on a rolling road to confirm/deny these power claims??
 
Last edited:
I'm with you in that I believe in avoiding the tedium when there's a viable option.... As for performance I'd also like to see non-partisan documented proof because things still feel Commando to me.
 
My own experience is that I did not notice a performance change when I swapped the points for my first Boyer long ago. Modern EI's have low resistance transistors that switch as well as contact breakers, and points start to wear / pit / change gap (timing) rather quickly while EI stays the same forever. Some will argue that the AAU advance curve has an effect, but some EI's come close to duplicating that.
 
E-ignitions are convenient and (more or less) maintenance free. In that respect they are better. As long as the E-ignition essentially duplicates the OEM advance curve; it will perform as well as a good, properly adjusted set of points/AAU and continue to do so with no degradation (points/AAU wear). But it will not improve performance over properly working/adjusted points/AAU.

I admit I have never performed a dyno test of this on a Commando; but I have done so many MANY times on car engines. Changing from points to EI as the sole change does not produce more power.

OTOH, if there are substantial engine mods that affect combustion chamber pressure/cylinder filling, an EI may work better then OEM to light the mixture under difficult conditions.
 
Last edited:
EI versus AAU has produced many discussions, heated at times, that focus on the advance curve(s). When you consider that a stock, or relatively stock, street Commando doesn't begin to shine until 3000 RPM, give or take, the EI and the AAU have come to full advance, or nearly so, what's the difference?

If you really like setting points and the big rush some get when they need replacement, you have too much time on your hands. The English bikes I service with points always seem to have buggered fasteners and aconcentrice adjusters, never mind the missing or disfigured wire terminations. If living with the AAU is your way of getting a few more urgs of power that no one can measure, knock yourself out.

Individuals that have race-only Nortons, from what I read on this forum, benefit from expensive programmable systems that allow setting the advance from idle to redline; hats off to you gents; I wish I still had the brass to get back on a track.

The more adjustments I can set and (almost) forget the better; I'd love a set of hydraulic tappets...

A decent EI will always be my choice.

Best.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HRD
Electronic ignition threads can sometimes become like an oil thread - get the popcorn. I can't imagine how, when they're all in by 3000 RPM there can be any difference in power, but what I have experienced is a smoother transition off-idle due to an intelligent advance curve. I'm a believer as I went from a straight line Boyer to an Altair and experienced it immediately. I've been told that if I just enriched my idle mixture it would result in the same but I have my doubts and am happy with a correct idle mixture. Anyway, I'm happy, no kick back and has been working past it's 7 year warranty.

Altair Triumph/Bsa/Norton Twin Ignition System :: Altair Ignitions :: Products :: Pazon Ignitions Limited

Altair Triumph/Bsa/Norton Unit Twin 12 volt, high-performance ignition system.12 volt electrics (positive or negative ground).Suitable for road-going, competition or highly tuned machines.Electric or kick start. Overview of Digital & Analogue Ignition Systems. Classic bike & car electronic...
www.pazon.com
 
I agree that Idle stabilization seems to be a good thing but OTOH, I never had any idle issues related to ignition in my original Commando (points/AAU). So I would ask, why do we NOW need idle stabilization when we didn't when the bikes were new? OTOH, I guess it's no different than "fixing" wet-sumping, which didn't exist as an issue back then either. ;)

Hey, I totally agree that EI is a better way than points/AAU. I have had an EI on my 850 since '08, when I replaced the OEM setup with a Trispark. Would I go back to OEM? Heck no...UNLESS there were no EIs that duplicated the OEM advance curve! ;) Fortunatelhy, there are and, like everybody else I like the fact that I don't have to "maintain" the EI. I basically haven't touched the TS since 2008. Much better than checking/adjusting (or replacing)/ points/condensor and lubricating the AAU every few thousand miles!!
 
I peed myself laughing the first time I saw a Suzuki triple proudly emblazoned with a side panel badge saying “Pointless Electronic Ignition” :D:D
 
My ‘69 750 S was having intermittent idle problems with the original points ignition. It was an easy way to determine ignition or carbs by installing a spare TriSpark I had. The problem was gone, issue solved.
 
A small endorsement for points over electronic ignition. A group of us rode about 750 miles to a Norton rally. One of the bikes had a duff charging system, as in no charge. Fortunately the bike had points, not an electronic ignition. The bike ran total loss all the way there, at the rally, and back. When we stopped for lunch at a restaurant, the mostly dead battery was connected to a charger. Not sure what voltage it was dropping to, but it was pretty dam low at the end of each day. I doubt you would get that mileage with an electronic ignition running total loss.
 
Stephen Hill said:
I doubt you would get that mileage with an electronic ignition running total loss.
Click to expand...
I can confirm that my TriSpark ignition keeps running with a blown main fuse (rectifier / regulator still working) down to idling at 7.5 volts.
 
The main advantage of EI over AAU and points is that EI eliminates that stupid AAU metallurgy. That is, the AAU unit has slotted bob weights that wear on the pins that guide them. The weights hang up on the slots at the point where the pins are located at full advance. The result is that the bikes get stuck at full advance and don’t automatically retard as they should. Bikes stuck at full advance have goofy idle problems. A bike won’t idle properly when the RPM is low and the advance is advanced
 
I think we all appreciate the benefits of not having to gap and dress the points & repeated adjustment of the timing... but does anyone have solid rolling road data to prove/dis-prove any power increase when using EI ??
This is only a discussion point as i wouldn't swap out the Pazon system i have fotted, power increase or not!! :D
 
My anecdotal BS:

I did try running EI (Boyer MkIII) without a battery, using a battery eliminator reg/rect and it worked, but took one heck of kick to get the bike started, and it would die when I turned on the lights when cold and idle wasn't as high as it gets when fully warmed up. I ended up installing a small battery to make starting the bike a lot easier and keep running at idle when I turn on the lights.

I seriously doubt there is a lot of performance to be gained (more HP) over a points setup with the basic EI parts from Boyer, and others. Not enough control of the ignition curve to make any difference. The EI advantage in my head is the EI is a simple set and forget near perfect simulation of a good ignition curve when points are setup to spec.

I have no plans to ever use points again. My nostalgia filter won't allow it.
 
olympus said:
I think we all appreciate the benefits of not having to gap and dress the points & repeated adjustment of the timing... but does anyone have solid rolling road data to prove/dis-prove any power increase when using EI ??
Click to expand...

DynoDave may have some empirical data, but the short answer is NO. And if there is any gain/loss of engine output it would be below 3000/3200 RPM where you don't spend a lot of time.

Idle stabilization is a feature that comes into play when you are aggressively coming to a stop, blipping the throttle, down shifting applying the brakes where without idle stabilization you may be rewarded with a stall. BMW airheads with lightened flywheels and less restrictive exhaust systems almost always stall when hard braking/down shifting is applied; idle stabilization virtually eliminates this.

Best.
 
MexicoMike said:
I agree that Idle stabilization seems to be a good thing but OTOH, I never had any idle issues related to ignition in my original Commando (points/AAU). So I would ask, why do we NOW need idle stabilization when we didn't when the bikes were new? OTOH, I guess it's no different than "fixing" wet-sumping, which didn't exist as an issue back then either. ;)

Hey, I totally agree that EI is a better way than points/AAU. I have had an EI on my 850 since '08, when I replaced the OEM setup with a Trispark. Would I go back to OEM? Heck no...UNLESS there were no EIs that duplicated the OEM advance curve! ;) Fortunatelhy, there are and, like everybody else I like the fact that I don't have to "maintain" the EI. I basically haven't touched the TS since 2008. Much better than checking/adjusting (or replacing)/ points/condensor and lubricating the AAU every few thousand miles!!
Click to expand...
I'm not so sure it's idle stabilization but rather a smoother transition off idle such as when you pull away rather gently with no clutch slip. What I noticed with the Boyer was a bit of a stumble that might require declutching in traffic while with the Altair, presumably the slight timing retard negates that stumble. The timing retards around 11-1200 RPM then begins to advance allowing a smooth pickup from idle. That's probably the only difference but I certainly noticed the difference - pretty much just in traffic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top