daily tool kit?

hey guys, thanks for all the info. i really and trully did not know ab. these *English* types of fasteners..... sorry for rattling all you islanders

...but i did spend some time on monday chatting w/ an experienced car wrench and he brought me up to date on the whitworth fasteners, the correlation between bolt size and head-of-bolt size, the rounded off threads to diminish the peaks and valleys to lower the stress risers etc... educational weekend for me :lol:

ok, looks like more tool shopping for me... kinda looking forward to 'new toys' (i just hope there is more than one brand and that maybe one of them approaches *at least* craftsman quality... )
have any of you found these tools in here? even though it's car-based, they do have many unique tools. i'm hoping for the best: http://www.zdmak.com/

took the beast for a 100 mile ride on monday and managed to get stranded 3 miles from home.

it fired up just fine all day long, and on my last stop, while getting gas, it decided to just remain there. tried kicking it, push starting too, which worked but idle was so weak that when i was getting suited up it died and wouldn't start.

something tells me i have a weird electrical issue (imagine that..) b/c the only thing i did differently on my last leg was to fire up the headlight. not sure if half hour of riding should weaken the battery so much b/c it was about a week old, but i just put it in when i bought it w/o checking or charging it. it's on a 'tender' now. the light seemed dimmer too (once at the station) so that's why i'm leaning that way.

question: w/ a good battery, would fouled plugs make it somewhat difficult to start? couple times it sputtered but didn't take, i'm wondering if i cleaned the plugs i would have had a better chance?

anyway, it hurt to chain it up at a gas station but i had no choice.

Can you get Gedore tools in the US ? They still list Whitworth in open-ended and combination styles.

I ploughed through the tool catalogues at work and found that they had generally the thinnest jaws - so I bought some. They are of a good quality and very hard, although not as shiny as some, eg Snap-On, but I find Snap-Ons a bit slippery when oily. You won't have any chrome-flaking problems with Gedore.

Britool also list Whit but I find the plating on their recent products a bit dubious.

Was there anyone else present at the filling station when you had starting problems ? You are aware aren't you that the ease of starting any Norton is inversely proportional to the number of people watching. That's why they always start at home when no one else is about.

Seriously, kick starting 850 Commandos is an acquired art that requires lots of practice in different situations. If you can start an 850 consistently, you can start anything. I don't know why that is particularly but they always seem harder to kick over than 750s. My low comp 850Mk 111 takes much more of a swing than my true 10:1 / PW3 750

If I fail to start within three kicks or so (which is rare), I usually get off and put it on the mainstand. It's surprising otherwise how much effort goes into compressing the rear suspension.

I have never had plug fouling problems on a Commando and have stuck with Champion N7YCs If you're not over-oiling, the worst it can be is wet with fuel which should clear with a bit of throttle as it attempts to catch.

I understand that you are running a Boyer so a flat battery situation there would normally be accompanied by popping and banging and a sore foot

79x100 said:

Was there anyone else present at the filling station when you had starting problems ? You are aware aren't you that the ease of starting any Norton is inversely proportional to the number of people watching. That's why they always start at home when no one else is about.

Click to expand...

:lol: thanks for that... as it was a monday holiday, there was a bunch of people constantly passing through the station. even had trouble finding space for a bump start, which didn't work anyway.

finally my battery tender showed me the green light so i'll put it back in and see if that makes a difference. there's always the chance that the sales lit/person is lying when they say the batteries are full and ready to go... after all, how long has it been sitting around?

assuming the battery helps, i'll avoid night rides for a while, just in case the headlight is causing the drain, though i can't imagine that it's the only electrical gremlin in there.

thanks for the tool suggestion.
haven't thought about using the center stand to avoid susp compression. great idea. thanks (again)

kommando said:

Mobile phone and strict instructions to SWMBO to keep her mobile close by is all you need.

Oh and the car she comes in must have 100lbs of Norton Tools and assorted spares :roll:

Click to expand...

or the boyfriend, as the case may be :!: :wink:

and a trailer will suffice, if he doesn't have the tools and spare parts handy 8)

actually though, the only time I've had to trailer one home is when the layshaft bearing went out on my 850. Kinda hard to fix that at roadside :!:

Debby

If the layshaft ever goes again, get it into 4th as no drive goes through the layshaft in 4th its the only gear that works, and slip the clutch like mad.

kommando said:

If the layshaft ever goes again, get it into 4th as no drive goes through the layshaft in 4th its the only gear that works, and slip the clutch like mad.

Click to expand...

how would you identify the fact that a layshaft is the culprit?
(sorry for the beginner questions)

Learned a Lesson

Alpha, I learned the hard way on how I spoke about the Irish, English and Scotish when I was stationed over in Scotland. At a pub one afternoon I made the mistake while talking to one of my Scot Friends " I made a comparison of a Scot and his " English Breathern" or Brothers. I was informed there was no family ties whatsoever between the English and Scotish--- they wanted to be totally their own country Scotland. It was all in jest and got some good laughs over it. Have a good one drink a pint of Ale for me along with some fish and chips--- best in the world for sure. semper fi devildog

how would you identify the fact that a layshaft is the culprit?
(sorry for the beginner questions)[/quote]

This is a subject quite well covered in the UK Norton Owners Club Service notes. It is a problem which mostly arose with a standard poor quality ball bearing on the layshaft and it is accentuated by running large (22t or above) gearbox sprockets.

There was a fashion over here in the '70s for running huge sprockets to give a higher motorway cruising speed. Belt conversions didn't exist and Norton never offered a larger triplex engine sprocket.

Most people have now fitted roller bearings and have no problems, although some say this can cause the shaft itself to break and prefer a higher spec ball bearing.

One end of the layshaft is supported in the kickstart shaft bush so if the bearing gives up and the shaft begins to run out of line, the first symptom is that the kickstart lever begins to go down and then fly back up again. Continuing to run will cause the demise of the gearbox shell and other damage plus possibly locking up the rear wheel.

I would stop immediately because the risks of complete transmission failure are just too great. The NOC do say that if you remove all internals apart from 4th (which runs 1:1 locked on the mainshaft) you can ride further but as you have no kickstart, starting will not be easy. In this day of mobile phones and recovery services, I would have to be really desperate to consider doing it.

I question the sanity of attempting to ride with a layshaft problem. Having riden a Norton with a tooth knocked off 4th layshaft, I can tell you that every gear drives through the 4th gear pair. Even with it in 4th, the knock was felt every time that gap came around. It did not seem to be freewheeling. It felt the same in every gear. I can't find my workshop manuals to confirm the power path, and it has been many years since i've been inside the box. However, it has been my experience that any problem with the layshaft is a disaster in the making. The variable(s) being: throttle, clutch, time, and/or beer :lol:
The results can be quite different, but usually costly: An attempt to (push)start with a broken layshaft resulted in the maincase being blown apart, but other than cases and layshaft, most every thing else survived.
An attempt to wheely with a bad layshaft bearing caused the destruction of every moving part in the gearbox, yet the cases survived.
The end results usually fell somewhere in the middle :cry:

The small gear on the layshaft is always referred to as layshaft 4th for convenience, but really, it drives the output (sleeve) gear when 1st, 2nd and 3rd are in use but it would be a bit confusing to call it that.

Drive comes in to the gearbox from the clutch centre, via the mainshaft. In top, the output sleeve gear is effectively "dogged" to the mainshaft so turns with it at a 1:1 ratio

I have always felt because of this that it is kinder to thrash it in top than the intermediate gears.

I assume you felt a knock with the damaged layshaft gear simply because they are in constant mesh and oil drag and backlash meant that things were trying to get out of line.

I quite agree with the view that one should stop immediately at the first sign of gearbox trouble. The damage can only otherwise get worse and the risk to life and limb is enormous. Apologies for stating the obvious but Pulling in the clutch doesn't help at all with a locked gearbox.

I would say that continuing on with an obviously-damaged gearbox is likely to make a bad situation even worse, possibly resulting in further damage and/or severe injury to the rider. In my case, it wasn't an option. Bike was in fourth gear when the bearing came apart and the gearbox locked up solid. In fourth gear. I thought at first I'd seized the engine but realized it was the gearbox when I pulled the clutch lever and it had no effect! I skidded to a stop in the middle of the road. Good thing there wasn't any traffic behind me!

When we took it apart we found the bearing cage had broken up, allowing all the balls to come out of the bearing. That side of the layshaft was basically a free agent. Amazingly, nothing else was damaged! I don't remember what type of bearing we put in - could have been just a better-quality ball bearing - but the gearbox never gave any further trouble.

You'd think by now all the OEM bearings would have failed and been replaced but such is not the case. A couple of guys in our club had the bearing fail and lock up the gearbox just after buying their Commandos (just within the last few years). Maybe some of those "9900 mile" ebay bikes really do only have 9900 miles... :lol:

I rebuilt the gearbox on my current 750 this winter, mainly because of concerns about the bearing. I found a ball bearing inside, still in good condition. No idea if it was original or not.

Debby

}{arlequin said:

how would you identify the fact that a layshaft is the culprit?

Click to expand...

One symptom of imminent layshaft bearing failure can be a kickstart lever that starts to move downwards at times all by itself, normally during acceleration.

It is possible to ride using only fourth gear as an emergency 'get you home' measure if the layshaft bearing fails (assuming that the gearbox internals haven't destroyed themselves completely?) but the layshaft should be completely removed from the gearbox first!

Most people belong to some kind of breakdown and recovery service these days, so having to resort to such desperate measures are generally no longer necessary!

79x100: Since I was in town at the time (Ft Lauderdale, FL), there probably wasn't much opportunity to stay in 4th. I may have had a 23T c/s sprocket in place of the original 19T by then, exacerbating the gear/speed situation! This was 1975, and some memories are a little fuzzy :lol: :roll:
The dominant memory is being P.O.'d at myself for causing the problem by showing off with a wheelie. If I had been thinking clearly, I would not have ridden it back to the house, but parked it and gone for my truck. However, that first Norton ALWAYS got me somewhere, and never left me stranded on the side of the road. Well, there was that one flat at speed! And I rode from Ft L to Orlando with a main bearing disintegrating, spruced up the oil pump and then rode to Jacksonville, FL. Not to mention the telephone to head that necessitated a visit to the ER, after a ride. Hmm, I did seem to have a lot a problems in Florida, and I didn't even live there :lol: