cylinder removal

NoiseyNorton said:

Also I would love to be able to spilt the case but as the cylinder hasn't even budged not sure if that route will work. Maybe I'm still able to?

Click to expand...

First, my point was that if you use a fixture like the angle iron to break one piston free and the other piston is still stuck, you are now pushing down on the free piston which puts force on the crankshaft to PULL on the connecting rod connected to the remaining stuck piston. That seems like a mistake to me.

IF the pistons are stuck at the top of the stroke, you probably can't get the barrels off, but if the pistons are stuck down more than an inch or more, then you can remove the case from the frame, and unbolt the base studs. The barrels will rise as the crankshaft turns. If the studs clear the base of the barrels, you can split the case halves. If not then you might need to vice grip the base studs and turn them out so the case halves can be split.

This allows you to unbolt the connecting rods, so you can work on the barrels, one piston at a time without them being connected to each other.

I'm sure some people might think what I suggest is unnecessary.... Perhaps I am paranoid.

o0norton0o said:

First, my point was that if you use a fixture like the angle iron to break one piston free and the other piston is still stuck, you are now pushing down on the free piston which puts force on the crankshaft to PULL on the connecting rod connected to the remaining stuck piston. That seems like a mistake to me.

Click to expand...

Based on your statement (thank you for that), my original suggestion then needs some clarification: "Once you get some movement from the first piston, move to the other bore until it also moves. Alternate left-right until all's clear." You're absolutely right about not putting a cross-load on the crank.

Nathan

o0norton0o said:

First, my point was that if you use a fixture like the angle iron to break one piston free and the other piston is still stuck, you are now pushing down on the free piston which puts force on the crankshaft to PULL on the connecting rod connected to the remaining stuck piston. That seems like a mistake to me.

Click to expand...

I suggest you try the method before calling it bad. If you have absolutely zero feel for things mechanical, then yes you will break something. Common sense and a little understanding and feel for what's happening as you turn the nut is called for. There are a lot of variables at play which any given method can not take into account. If the rings are rusted solid to the cylinder then it may not work. In my experience the bond has never been that tight. Shock methods (wood blocks and a hammer, etc) are difficult to get square on the piston(s). Turning the crankshaft nut is a dangerous one because too much force can break the shaft at the nut. This method worked for me. I did not feel any "undo" pressure on the crank or the other connecting rod. Both pistons broke loose at the same time with very little pressure applied to the top of the piston. I had soaked the cylinders in PB Blaster for a couple of days prior to doing this.

I would never keep cranking on the nut against one piston if the other piston was still stuck...it's just plain common sense. Sorry.

dennisgb said:

I suggest you try the method before calling it bad. If you have absolutely zero feel for things mechanical, then yes you will break something. Common sense and a little understanding and feel for what's happening as you turn the nut is called for. There are a lot of variables at play which any given method can not take into account. If the rings are rusted solid to the cylinder then it may not work. In my experience the bond has never been that tight. Shock methods (wood blocks and a hammer, etc) are difficult to get square on the piston(s). Turning the crankshaft nut is a dangerous one because too much force can break the shaft at the nut. This method worked for me. I did not feel any "undo" pressure on the crank or the other connecting rod. Both pistons broke loose at the same time with very little pressure applied to the top of the piston. I had soaked the cylinders in PB Blaster for a couple of days prior to doing this.

I would never keep cranking on the nut against one piston if the other piston was still stuck...it's just plain common sense. Sorry.

Click to expand...

Cool that it worked for you denis. I was just pointing out to Nathan what seems to me like a potential drawback to ANY method that pushes down on a single piston while it's connected through the crankshaft and another stuck piston. As you pointed out the more rusted in place things are, the more you need to be observant and careful with the amount of force you apply to a single piston...

o0norton0o said:

Cool that it worked for you denis. I was just pointing out to Nathan what seems to me like a potential drawback to ANY method that pushes down on a single piston while it's connected through the crankshaft and another stuck piston. As you pointed out the more rusted in place things are, the more you need to be observant and careful with the amount of force you apply to a single piston...

Click to expand...

I tried to provide a possible method to the OP. I thought that was the point of this forum...I guess not.

If you can get one piston to move just a fraction, you are on the home stretch, then go to the next one and try to move that. It is common that one piston is seizd and the other is not as parralell twins will always have one valve open when parked. I doubt very much that any damage will be done to the crank, it probably flexes more than that during normal running, furthermore the shell bearings are soft material and will probably have quite a bit of give in them. In practical terms I think it highly unlikely that any damage will occur to the crank from any of these methods.

I hope I never have to deal with it but it seems that 'dennisgb' 's idea is the one to try. Worrying about uneven pressure could be a concern but one could easily make up a 'U' channel as the tool body and mount it across both cylinders, then utilizing two 'push' bolts, one on each piston, would allow for equal pressure on each piston crown.

Biscuit said:

I hope I never have to deal with it but it seems that 'dennisgb' 's idea is the one to try. Worrying about uneven pressure could be a concern but one could easily make up a 'U' channel as the tool body and mount it across both cylinders, then utilizing two 'push' bolts, one on each piston, would allow for equal pressure on each piston crown.

Click to expand...

A wooden disc on top of the piston will help to spread the force.
Ta.

Try the grease gun.

A grease gun will make up to 5 - 10,000PSI, not 100; a high pressure gun even more. The tractor guys run into this all the time as tractors generally have vertical exhaust pipes and are often parked with no rain protection. Years later the machine becomes collectible and the pistons are stuck. I've never heard of the grease gun method failing.

Another method the tractor guys use if they know which cylinder is stuck is to use hydraulics from another tractor. That's 2000psi generally and will move all but the seriously seized pistons but isn't as controllable as a grease gun. In your case it may be best to use two or alternately pressure each barrel.

If you have a hydraulic source like a porta-power you could try it.

Windex, the best thing for you!

I have used the grease gun to remove piston from a Norton front caliper...Worked great...A friend had a 1914 Harley and got the pistons to move on it with a grease gun...No ill affects seen in either case, except for a few dollars of grease and the fitting...

Hi
Word of warning on the grease gun method and or use of hydraulics, beware of HIGH PRESSURE FLUID INJECTION :evil: .
Ensure all fittings, hoses and threads used are rated for the pressures.
There are a litany of very serious injuries and fatalities recorded from the mishandling of said tools, loss of limbs, badly disfigured limbs, brain damage and loss of eyes/eyesight etc.
There are no gloves that will protect you from HIGH PRESSURE FLUID INJECTION either.
Good idea to do a web search on HIGH PRESSURE FLUID INJECTION.
One incident I can remember was of a Diesel Mechanic working on an engine with a hydraulic lock. he took the injectors out and attempted to turn the engine over with the starter while standing above the injector port, fluid was ejected out the port and he suffered brain damage from the subsequent fluid injection (USA Safety Alert Fatality).
My son is a machinist and a young 3rd year apprentice was working on a hydraulic accumulator that was still under pressure, whilst working on it he suffered fluid injection to the hand, many operations later he has a horribly looking hand and arm.
High pressure fluid in Aus, is any pressure of fluid > 700 PSI, I believe this where it is capable of piercing the skin.

Having said that it will certainly do what you want if done correctly.

Burgs

My goodness, its just a grease gun!
Jaydee

wereee all gunna die!!! :shock:

High pressure anything cuts like Darth Vader's light saber. Burgs makes a good caveat. Ask any Navy man about high pressure steam.

It is true that a grease gun can develop more pressure than the 150 I first proposed (I was thinking that would be all that was required). However, most of us has experienced a "frozen" grease fitting .... trying to force one open has certainly developed all the pressure a grease gun can develop without any dire effects.

I doubt that the OP, should he use the grease method, with pressure on both cylinders, will find the need to go much beyond 150 psi. If the pistons refuse to break loose, the grease gun can develop enough pressure to pull the head bolts. Surely? the pistons will let go before that happens, especially if the phosphoric acid treatment is first applied.

The saving grace of applying pressure with a grease gun is that should a breach occur, or the pistons move, the pressure IMMEDIATELY DROPS to a very low level.

I eagerly await NoisyNorton's feedback telling us how he triumphed (Nortoned?) in this case.

Slick

Thanks Burgs.
Sound advice. I've survived thus far by heeding the advice of intelligent people.
I'm prepared to listen rather than learn everything by my own experiences (a word synonymous for mistakes).
Of the suggestions offered for the resolution of the original posters concern, the mechanical plate and bolts method would present less risk (not the determination a coroner should have to make or an epitaph explain).
Ta.

It's quite true that unlike using air or any other compressible medium, when using a grease gun the pressure will immediately reduce as soon as something moves. It will not result in an explosive event. The difference is quite noticeable when freeing a brake piston with air or grease, With air you need to restrict the piston movement with a block of wood or similar. With grease it just makes a tiny jump when it moves and that is probably due to some air bubbles trapped somewhere.

Any method that applies force requires caution and common sense.

Sometimes we lose sight of that and bad things can happen.

If it doesn't move with a reasonable amount of force then regroup.

Sort of what I was saying about the angle iron approach. If you put some force on the top of the piston and it still doesn't move, it likely isn't going to. If one breaks loose and the other doesn't then it is obvious what you need to do.

I've always struggled with the compressed air or grease in the spark plug hole...you really can't see how bad things are until you remove the head. If it's frozen, then IMO you should remove the head.

I would approach this problem like I do with other problems. Examine all the possible solutions v.s. the risks. Which one is the safest for me. That must remain the greatest concern. Trust your gut, if something doesn't feel right, stop. For me, the grease gun approach would be too dangerous for me and the motor, but it might be the preferred method for others. What ever approach you go with, be safe, and start slow.

moond850 said:

I would approach this problem like I do with other problems. Examine all the possible solutions v.s. the risks. Which one is the safest for me. That must remain the greatest concern. Trust your gut, if something doesn't feel right, stop. For me, the grease gun approach would be too dangerous for me and the motor, but it might be the preferred method for others. What ever approach you go with, be safe, and start slow.

Click to expand...

The grease gun poses no danger. Since the grease does not really compress as soon as the piston moves all pressure is off. It's much better than hammering away at it with wooden blocks. The pressure comes on gently and only enough to make it move.

Grease is also extremely messy and then becomes a disposal concern i.e. what to do with it after scooping it back out from the cylinder, if successful?
Ta.