Cuts out on hard deceleration

Joined
Nov 15, 2015
Messages
160
Country flag
750 commando with Boyer ignition and Tympanium regulator. If I snap the throttle shut after a hard acceleration, the engine dies. If I pull in on the clutch, then engage it again, it will bump start no problem. On the other hand, when I gradually ease up on the throttle while coming to a stop, all is fine. The battery is fully charged, and the the alternator is charging the battery as it should. Should I be looking at carburetor issues? It must be starving for gas at those times. They are Amals that I bought new, with probably about 5000 miles on them. Runs great otherwise, idles smooth at 1,100 rpm.
 
You accelerate hard, then shut the throttle and slow down.

I don’t understand what happens after that. You open the throttle, still in gear, but the engine doesn’t fire?
 
Let’s say I’m pulling up to a stop sign fast, and I slow down abruptly with engine braking. It will stall. For the sake of testing, experimenting, I have gone from hard exceleration to a rapid deceleration, and on the decel, pulled in the clutch to see if it cuts out, which I does, and while I’m still rolling, I engage the clutch, and it bump starts no problem. I can live with this condition as long as I pull up to stop signs and stop lights gradually, as it will stay running, but if I’m not careful I end up stalling and kickstarting in a line of traffic at a stop light. It’s only on hard deceleration that it stalls.
 
The bike might be telling you it wants to go faster. Is your tank securely fastened ? - it might be moving and upsetting the electrics.
 
There is another post on this page about ignition cutting out shortly after getting under way. You guys should get together and swap motors.
 
Here's what I think....

When you set up your amals, the air idle screw adjustment is comfortable in usually a 3/4 turn range.... That means you get the screw in that range and your actual Air/Fuel ratio is about 12/1 at the low range screw adjustment and 13/1 at the high range. YOUR ENGINE will tolerate this range without giving you any feedback to help you find out actually where you are in the range... read this again if you are not following before you read further...

So, you have your idle air screw set and your bike idles away happily,.... But now you go to accelerate by lifting the slide and needle.... You've now introduced a new variable to your carburation! So, how did that effect your actual A/F ratio??? Was your idling A/F so lean that the momentary addition of your slide and needle lifting caused your bike to run below a working A/F ratio?? (This is why some bikes "cough" when you open the throttle quickly) The solution is to use that 3/4 turn range of your idle air screw to richen up that setting, so when the effect of lifting the throttle causes a momentary lean condition, your new richer setting of the idle air screw adjustment has kept your carburation with a working A/F ratio... and you no longer get a stumble.

I know this is some heady shit to absorb,... but stay with me, I'm getting to your situation...

So we have this carburetor that has overlapping circuits so there is interaction between them, but when you are in each circuits range of carburation, that circuit dominates the A/F result of that RPM range, but the other settings are still contributing to the overall A/F.

When you set the idle air screw, you can NOT just set it without lifting and lowering the throttle as you set the adjustment because that's not how your carburetor is going to be used and you have to factor in how well is my idle transitioning to early acceleration. (meaning: Is it stumbling? or smoothly accelerating?) Often you can cure a carburetor "hiccup" by setting your idle screw with this technique (lifting and lowering as you adjust the screw looking for smoothest transition to midrange RPM's)

NOW, in your case, you have what sounds like the exact opposite condition, but based on the same effect. When you quickly shut the throttle, it's inducing a lean condition momentarily beyond the workable A/F ratio, so your bike stalls. The thing to do is the set the idle air screws slightly richer and see if you can make it go away....

Also,... this same lean condition induction by opening or closing the throttle quickly can also happen on the rich side of the equation. IF your A/F ratio is too close to rich and something you do momentarily enriches the carburetor you can foul out the engine that way too...

I know this is some heady stuff to wrap your head around,..... but it's a thing related to amals and the reason people who don't learn this give up on amals. I have straightened out a few people's amal carbs that had an acceleration stumbles by using the "lift and lower adjustment technique". Most of the time they say, "I've been trying to cure that for years".

I think it's pretty likely that shutting your throttle quickly is inducing a lean A/F condition and making your engine stall... So, now after you've read my lecture,... What is the solution??
 
Last edited:
Here's what I think....

When you set up your amals, the air idle screw adjustment is comfortable in usually a 3/4 turn range.... That means you get the screw in that range and your actual Air/Fuel ratio is about 12/1 at the low range screw adjustment and 13/1 at the high range. YOUR ENGINE will tolerate this range without giving you any feedback to help you find out actually where you are in the range... read this again if you are not following before you read further...

So, you have your idle air screw set and your bike idles away happily,.... But now you go to accelerate by lifting the slide and needle.... You've now introduced a new variable to your carburation! So, how did that effect your actual A/F ratio??? Was your idling A/F so lean that the momentary addition of your slide and needle lifting caused your bike to run below a working A/F ratio?? (This is why some bikes "cough" when you open the throttle quickly) The solution is to use that 3/4 turn range of your idle air screw to richen up that setting, so when the effect of lifting the throttle causes a momentary lean condition, your new richer setting of the idle air screw adjustment has kept your carburation with a working A/F ratio... and you no longer get a stumble.

I know this is some heady shit to absorb,... but stay with me, I'm getting to your situation...

So we have this carburetor that has overlapping circuits so there is interaction between them, but when you are in each circuits range of carburation, that circuit dominates the A/F result of that RPM range, but the other settings are still contributing to the overall A/F.

When you set the idle air screw, you can NOT just set it without lifting and lowering the throttle as you set the adjustment because that's not how your carburetor is going to be used and you have to factor in how well is my idle transitioning to early acceleration. (meaning: Is it stumbling? or smoothly accelerating?) Often you can cure a carburetor "hiccup" by setting your idle screw with this technique (lifting and lowering as you adjust the screw looking for smoothest transition to midrange RPM's)

NOW, in your case, you have what sounds like the exact opposite condition, but based on the same effect. When you quickly shut the throttle, it's inducing a lean condition momentarily beyond the workable A/F ratio, so your bike stalls. The thing to do is the set the idle air screws slightly richer and see if you can make it go away....

Also,... this same lean condition induction by opening or closing the throttle quickly can also happen on the rich side of the equation. IF your A/F ratio is too close to rich and something you do momentarily enriches the carburetor you can foul out the engine that way too...

I know this is some heady stuff to wrap your head around,..... but it's a thing related to amals and the reason people who don't learn this give up on amals. I have straightened out a few people's amal carbs that had an acceleration stumbles by using the "lift and lower adjustment technique". Most of the time they say, "I've been trying to cure that for years".

I think it's pretty likely that shutting your throttle quickly is inducing a lean A/F condition and making your engine stall... So, now after you've read my lecture,... What is the solution??
Sure seems likely it’s a lean condition. I’ll read your advice over a couple of times, then do what you suggest, and report back. Thank you.
 
Even with worn out slides Amal carbs will run good once the throttle has been opened, it's only when you idle down is when you have problems with worn out slides, well in my case anyway with my original Amals I rode my Norton for quite a few years with flogged/worn out slides, just had to control the idle by throttle movement when stopped at lights etc., but as soon as I started running with the throttle open it ran pretty good, I replaced the originals Amals back in 81 with a new set of Amals, I replace them about 12+ years ago with a set of PWK from Jim but after years of sticking float in one carb I have now put my old Amals back on and with the Joe Hunt my Norton is running the best it has ever run in 48+ years of ownership, slides are still good and idles well with that big spark.
oOnorton seems to understand it with what he had said with the AF ratio at idling down very similar with worn out slides at idle.

Ashley
 
As a further illustration, here's a dyno chart. The hp and torque curve aren't important for what I was saying. The important graph is at the bottom of the page. It shows the A/F ratio as the engine accelerated. Notice that the A/F ratio goes up and down. That happens with mechanical carburetors because their fuel delivery is a mixture of idle ports size, needle size and shape, needle jet size, main jet size, throttle body cutaway size, port shape, and probably a few more things...

If that bottom line could always be right down the middle as you accelerate, you would never have a hiccup... given that everything else (ignition components) are correctly working. That's why modern fuel injection has an Oxygen sensor to keep the A/F ratio correct. In the case of our carbs, we have to figure out what settings and adjustments work...... (usually recommend ones for a stock bike) Setting the idle air screw is something each one of us has to do for ourselves usually, and knowing how the carburetor's mechanical circuits interact and overlap is why some people like amals and some people hate them....

Cuts out on hard deceleration
 
As a further illustration, here's a dyno chart. The hp and torque curve aren't important for what I was saying. The important graph is at the bottom of the page. It shows the A/F ratio as the engine accelerated. Notice that the A/F ratio goes up and down. That happens with mechanical carburetors because their fuel delivery is a mixture of idle ports size, needle size and shape, needle jet size, main jet size, throttle body cutaway size, port shape, and probably a few more things...

If that bottom line could always be right down the middle as you accelerate, you would never have a hiccup... given that everything else (ignition components) are correctly working. That's why modern fuel injection has an Oxygen sensor to keep the A/F ratio correct. In the case of our carbs, we have to figure out what settings and adjustments work...... (usually recommend ones for a stock bike) Setting the idle air screw is something each one of us has to do for ourselves usually, and knowing how the carburetor's mechanical circuits interact and overlap is why some people like amals and some people hate them....

Cuts out on hard deceleration
And to back your point up even more, all of that on the graph is done under a constant WOT.
I real life you’d be opening the throttle more gradually introducing many more variables into the process !
 
"knowing how the carburetor's mechanical circuits interact and overlap is why some people like amals and some people hate them...."

Of course, none of that is exclusive to Amals. All vehicle carbs, from a small carb on a 50cc motorcycle to 1000+CFM Holleys on a big block V8 require the same "system overlap" via various methods.
 
If I snap the throttle shut after a hard acceleration, the engine dies. If I pull in on the clutch, then engage it again, it will bump start no problem. On the other hand, when I gradually ease up on the throttle while coming to a stop, all is fine.
Maybe you have a restricted fuel supply? Have you looked at your fuel filter at the tap(s)? Corrosion in your petrol tank? Blocked vent?

- Knut
 
750 commando with Boyer ignition and Tympanium regulator. If I snap the throttle shut after a hard acceleration, the engine dies. If I pull in on the clutch, then engage it again, it will bump start no problem. On the other hand, when I gradually ease up on the throttle while coming to a stop, all is fine. The battery is fully charged, and the the alternator is charging the battery as it should. Should I be looking at carburetor issues? It must be starving for gas at those times. They are Amals that I bought new, with probably about 5000 miles on them. Runs great otherwise, idles smooth at 1,100 rpm.
Has it always done this?
Or has it gradually started?
 
I have found that a rich idle screw setting fouls the plug on over-run (decelerating or going down a steep hill with throttle closed).

Then it is inclined to miss or stall.

You could test to see if weakening the idle mixture makes it better, or worse.

You could also test to see if enriching the idle mixture makes it better, or worse.
 
If these new Amal's with 5000 miles on them are Premiers then they probably have 17 pilots fitted, these tune lean and are now supplied with 19's on the 850's and the 750's respond well to 19's too.
 
Maybe you have a restricted fuel supply? Have you looked at your fuel filter at the tap(s)? Corrosion in your petrol tank? Blocked vent?

- Knut
I’ve check all that. Gas (I use av-gas from the local airstrip) flows freely.
 
Back
Top